working VS Show - Page 22

Hi, what I am going to say is to all who are interested in this thread, but I would like Prager and Steve1 to pay close attention it may be of good benefit as a true piece of information

Here where I live there are no shows, no clubs, no shutzhund training is available. The only place where dogs get real training is in the Police special dog unit. Most of the people here who need dogs in their life have local dogs, no breed or breed name, no uniformity in size, color etc.
Example 1

As I said before beduins use dogs as shepherd and watch dogs at night, they pick a homeless puppy every now and then, feed him, take him with the sheep in the day, tie him at night and leave him. They no nothing about training dogs, if they hear that in other countries they train dogs and have clubs etc they would, I amagine, laugh and disbelieve. Some of those picked dogs excell as shepherds and watchdogs. I have seen that there is no way you can enter their area at night. They bark fiercely and pull on their chains in a frightening way to a stranger. I think they understand by nature, genetics or whatever their role with the owner or maybe they give him back for the food and home he gave them. Old people here say (a dog which does not protect its territory is not worth the food he eats).

Example 2

Most Stock farmers who raise sheep, cows etc have local dogs who guard their stock at night, without training and most of them excel in that.

Example 3

There are people who live in the city, but have small farms in rural agricultural areas, go to those farms on week ends as picnic and grow in them vegetables, chickens etc. Some of these people can afford to pay for a breed dog. The trend was to get a show line GSD as it was the only line known to people. In general a showline GSD (according to our experience) excells as a pet and only to frighten strangers with its size. I am sorry to say this but a local average dog is much better as a gurd dog (no training). Also according to our experience, some of the show GSD will defend its owner if he understands hi owner is in danger.

Recently, some started bringing Working line puppies and raise them, the three I know and seen are excelling in territory protection so far (no training whatsoever).

One of my friends imported a working line GSD, a grown one with titles, till now he is not getting it, he does not guard.


Ibrahim

Who cares what the real # genetics holds? We would never be able to know for sure anyway. It's all a guess. I understand what Hans is getting at. It's the point I get, not whether I actually agree with that set #. Genetics are very important but genetics alone, will only get you so far, like guarding, and hearding camels in the dessert. The rest is the raising, socialization, training and relationship you build with those genetics. If your pup is only 3% good genetics, your house will tilt, no matter how much soc, training and such you put into it. If you start out with the full 5%, you can do anything, as long as you don't faulter in your socialization, relationship, raising or training somewhere.

Thank you 4pack and MaggieMae.
Prager Hans

It will be interesting to here what the Guys over here think of the subject, Whether they will think the same as most of you Guys do over there in the USA i do not know but i will be suprised if they do
All Genes or whatever the Pup is going to have is there from conception, it cannot be altered afterwards, If the Parents are inferior Dogs then the Pup will inherit what is given, No amount of Training will make that dog great, a top trainer may  bring out more than a not so good one, but that is also the case from a really top bred animal, except in the case where the said Dog and Handler are not compatable
But i will see what they say when i get to see the Guys
Steve1

Steve 1Just make sure that you print my statements so that they can see the  logic as I am presenting it.
Prarer Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

To Steve1,

"If the Parents are inferior Dogs then the Pup will inherit what is given"

How then do some dogs with fast normal hips produce normal hips?
You must know already that every pup gets a new combination of genes from both parents.
And not all the pups will be exactly like the mother or the father.

On the other hand, when looking for a puppy, I also try to get one with good genes from good parents.
But because of the variables, that does not always work either.

In the long run, I think I would be most thankful for a healthy dog.


To all

I  assume that Hans is not talking about a reject puppy with any severe character flaws.


I had a GSD and everytime it did something - it was at full speed.  (Come, sleeve, bring, play, etc...)
I barely had to train for that quality. (no treats - just praise)
It was also very focused on me (and happy to be) with very little effort or training.
Others would "choose" to casually trot and I had to encourage or train these areas for improvement.
Every dog is a unique individual and the more I learned how to deal with this, the training became easier.

At first I found it difficult to use one set of numbers (5,95) and apply it to every dog.

I would say that it has very much to do with training but the number is a variable depending on the dog.
Some advance more quickly in certain areas than others.
Only you and your trainer knows for sure.

In the end though, every aspect of training with every dog still had to be delt with and gone over - to be sure that they would react the same under different circumstances, locations, helpers, etc...

In hindsight, after spending days, weeks, months, or a year(s) or so training, 5-95 might not be so far fetched.

It's a good thing that this is fun right?

Maybe some busy people only commit to 70 training and try to buy 30 in genes. (lol)

In a big competition with highly trained dogs, a dog that is a natural might have a slight advantage.
(depending on the others and their training)

But that's just my opinion.

I guess we could look at Mr Murphy again and see what gsd lines his genes are from. (5-95?)

Watch Mr. Murphy

Lee

Prager
Why would i not tell it as you have told it, no point in that at all, and for you to think that i would not tell it as it is and the truth, then there is absolutely no point in me bothering to ask what the Guys think about it over here for you will not believe me if there thoughts are different from your own anyway after asking me that,
You think what you say is right and nothing will change it, the only thing which will change my point of view on it was for them  to say it as you have but that will not happen now
 However say what you will at conception of all living things the die is cast there is no change from the moment the egg is fertilized, No more to add and nothing to be taken away
The Pup has been given genetically all it will ever have during its life time Good and Bad points, But what i am saying is if you breed two dogs together which you THINK OR KNOW are stable Mentally, Have good Hips and Elbows, Have the best Ancestors a Dog can  have etc we can go on but that is enough,
Some Pups will inherit some traits from one parent more than another, some more from both some pups will show more awareness and more spirit than its litter mates etc, But whatever they were given cannot change, There is no more Percentage during its life time to be given no more percent 5% OR WHATEVER IT CANNOT BE regards Genetics they cannot be given after the Sperm meets the Egg and it takes thats it
The only thing that can be used in favour of one pup to  another is two things What qualities that Pup inherited from its Parents regards Drive and Wiliness to work what Brains it was given at the time of the dogs meeting together meaning its Genetics
The other is the quality of training and its home environment Training goes hand in hand with the daily life and feeding, the general welfare of the Dog it is not just taking it to the training field etc and the quality of training
So now we come down to it The Brightest Dog having inherited better quality genes or a better combination of genes than its litter mates will with the above should be expected to turn out better in whatever the task is set for the Pups if the Handler is qualified and can bring out the best in the Dog an inferior handler of course will not bring out the same that is of course we all know that
But if you have a dog which is bred from Inferior Dogs, then what that Pup has inherited will stay with it for its life time
a really good handler can improve the dog a little but not make it great if it inherited some bad faults they too can be curbed but never taken away fully it is in the genes nothing can alter that, a bad handler can of course make it worse
These are my thoughts on it and that is the way i work with live stock and it has kept me at the top of the tree for decades in my chosen field, Dogs are no different as are not we humans we cannot add or take away once conception has taken place
I will now call this thread over for me, for i cannot add much to what i have already said and there is no point in carrrying on we all think what we think and at the end of the day no matter what is said it will remain that way
Steve1 

Lee
Mr Murphy was a great little Dog he evidently took a whole bundle of good Genes from his parents,
Jack Russell's can be really clever stable devoted Dogs then you can get some real thick heads and nasty little buggers, again it is in the genes what the dog was given at the time, regards again the snappy little unsociable buggers Yes, a good trainer handler can curb some of its bad tendencies but never fully get rid of them there is always the element of risk and change you cannot change what was inherited only curb it

Steve1,

I support your point of view and think it is correct or closest to what is correct, at one point I thought you were drifting the importance of genetics and melting it in the value of training, but I learned I was wrong and you appreciate the value of genetics and put it in its true size. If it helps I want you to know that I for one learnrd much from this thread, you had a major contribution as well as Prager and all the others. I especially like what Red Sable said in her last post.

If Prager allows me, I beleive and want to believe that Prager did not mean what he said about copying what he said in this thread and show it to your friends the way it sounded to you and maybe to others. What he said in this thread was interpreted (understood) differently by various people who contributed to this thread, that is why it is important that what he exactly said be read by your friends as it makes a difference.
 I can see how people on this forum respect you not only because you are older and wiser but also because you are knowledgable and full of experience. I look the same to Prager and respect him for what he is. He can make a mistake (one of them is this five-ninety five in my opinion), you can make a mistake too, we all do.


Ibrahim