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by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 19:12
sorry double post
by Prager on 13 December 2009 - 19:12
leeshideaway
That is what I am saying. You got it.
steve1
I have just said that ,so nothing will get lost in the translation. There was no disrespect by me to you ment at all. I like you. Sorry if I was not more clear.
Red Sable, Ibrahim
Reread and try to understand what I am actually saying. If the dog does not have the prey drive then his foundation is good only for a "shit house". I have said that when the puppy is born the genetics are 100%. As he is trained into complete dog the efford accounts of 95% in a finished dog. leeshidaway said it well above.
Prager Hans
by Gustav on 13 December 2009 - 22:12
I donot think that all the people over here think one way or see things one way and I don't think all the trainers in Belgium are the gospel. I think there is a diversity of thought in the staes depending on your perspective to working dogs, and I think the same thing applies to Belgium. I personally know that KNPV and Sch often have different approaches to what they are breeding for based on the needs of each sport. Like speed vs full grips. Well, the same applies to working breeders over here in terms of sport vs LE/PPD. I do think we can all agree that good German shepherding breeding is based on breeding dogs that can work and pass those traits forward.JMO
by leeshideaway on 13 December 2009 - 23:12
I also agree with you Steve1.
One of the most time consuming parts of me getting a pup is researching genetics.
Trying to find out all that I can about temperment, drive traits, health, structure, etc....
With all the training methods available these days and ithe internet with videos and other data,
It's hard to pick a pup or a bloodline without inside information regarding genetics.
Like personally knowing someone that handled or trained the dogs. (that you trust)
Even then there is some luck involved when choosing, because some traits are not evident untill the pup matures.
If I could choose great genetics, I most certainly would.
I will guarantee you that when my dog does something outstanding - I say "what a great dog!"
Not "what a great trainer".
----------
When I went through PPD training with one of my dogs, one of the first things that happened was testing to see if the dog genetically had the necessary courage and drives.
He did so we were ready to go on to the next step.
At this point is the beginning - where the dog/genes are 100%
What Steve1 says applies here. (the dog was over 1 yr old)
If he did not have the right genetic make up - there was no point to go further. - reject
Then came all the months of training - repeating lessons learned under different circumstances.
Tons of obedience, Having total strangers to the dog try to attack me in locations that the dog has never been.
On leash - off leash, hidden bite sleeves, at work, at home, poison training, walking in the park,
verbal commands, hand signals, teaching the dog where to place himself when a stranger approaches,
making sure he would be safe and be able to tell when a threat was real, and the list goes on.
After all of the training, does anyone think he was a protection dog because of genes?
Lee
One of the most time consuming parts of me getting a pup is researching genetics.
Trying to find out all that I can about temperment, drive traits, health, structure, etc....
With all the training methods available these days and ithe internet with videos and other data,
It's hard to pick a pup or a bloodline without inside information regarding genetics.
Like personally knowing someone that handled or trained the dogs. (that you trust)
Even then there is some luck involved when choosing, because some traits are not evident untill the pup matures.
If I could choose great genetics, I most certainly would.
I will guarantee you that when my dog does something outstanding - I say "what a great dog!"
Not "what a great trainer".
----------
When I went through PPD training with one of my dogs, one of the first things that happened was testing to see if the dog genetically had the necessary courage and drives.
He did so we were ready to go on to the next step.
At this point is the beginning - where the dog/genes are 100%
What Steve1 says applies here. (the dog was over 1 yr old)
If he did not have the right genetic make up - there was no point to go further. - reject
Then came all the months of training - repeating lessons learned under different circumstances.
Tons of obedience, Having total strangers to the dog try to attack me in locations that the dog has never been.
On leash - off leash, hidden bite sleeves, at work, at home, poison training, walking in the park,
verbal commands, hand signals, teaching the dog where to place himself when a stranger approaches,
making sure he would be safe and be able to tell when a threat was real, and the list goes on.
After all of the training, does anyone think he was a protection dog because of genes?
Lee
by steve1 on 14 December 2009 - 08:12
Gustave
I was not going to post on this subject again for there is little point so we call it a draw for everyone, But i will answer your post
You may be correct in what you say about countries handling dogs differently
I know Belgium is not the be all and end all of handlers and trainers or even good dogs, that would be stupid of anyone to think so and i certainly do not, all countries have great dogs and handlers,
The only thing i will say about the Belgian Dog world is that there is a huge amount of talent in that country seeing the size of the country ido not know how big one State is in the USA but i bet the whole of Belgium would fit in one of those, 250miles +150 miles is the total size of Belgium. so a tiny country it is that is why i think there is so many good Handlers - Trainers in so little an area
If i go off of Dogs to Long Distance Racing Pigeons. having been in the sport for coming up 60 years in Jan 2010. I started my present family from 6 very late summer bred young birds, how i tested those 6 pigeons and what i did was unknown of in those times and still to this day people do not believe i did what i did,
It was in one way stupid and a waste of money in those days it took me 12 months to save up to buy them but i had to do what my heart told me to do, But did i think of the money No, they had to satifiy me that they were stable in temperament, had courage and brains, all these stem from good Genes nothing else
They survived my out of this world test no one before or after would do what i did to find out if i had a stable base to breed from to create a winning family. that was back in 1988,
2009 they are still as good and strong as ever probably better i would hope so, The type of bird i created in shape, balance, feather quality, brains and courage is the same now as when i started the family, but i was very careful in the breeding program as to what i introduced and of how it was bred, A few of course did not work that is normal so everything with the foreign blood in and those being tried went out of the loft, nothing left to ruin the family, but as we rarly tried a new bird it was not often that happened and of course if it worked so much the better
So for me Genes are paramount, they tell you so much and they also tell you things that you would rather not have they are nothing but building blocks towhat you want to accheive with the Dog or pigeon, Once you have a sound base it is reasonably easy to train and work, if you have an unstable product life is then a lot harder to get to the goals to want too, in part it can be done but for me i think it is a hard way one i can do without
We will see if my ideas were correct with the breeding of young Izzy, it was my first time matching up two Dogs the way i am used to with other forms of livestock, we will see if it turns out good or bad, But the signs from day one and even more now at 7 months old next week say it will be good if it does then i will allow my self a big grin on my face and a little satisfaction of a job well done
Prager has a wealth of Knowledge with Dogs and i certainly read his posts with interest for i have picked up a lot from reading them as i have from many others on here, we bicker at times but there is a lot of ideas and knowledge to be learned by all of us through these posts, i guess that is the reason we keep coming back, We can never stop learning and i for one have much still to learn
Steve1
I was not going to post on this subject again for there is little point so we call it a draw for everyone, But i will answer your post
You may be correct in what you say about countries handling dogs differently
I know Belgium is not the be all and end all of handlers and trainers or even good dogs, that would be stupid of anyone to think so and i certainly do not, all countries have great dogs and handlers,
The only thing i will say about the Belgian Dog world is that there is a huge amount of talent in that country seeing the size of the country ido not know how big one State is in the USA but i bet the whole of Belgium would fit in one of those, 250miles +150 miles is the total size of Belgium. so a tiny country it is that is why i think there is so many good Handlers - Trainers in so little an area
If i go off of Dogs to Long Distance Racing Pigeons. having been in the sport for coming up 60 years in Jan 2010. I started my present family from 6 very late summer bred young birds, how i tested those 6 pigeons and what i did was unknown of in those times and still to this day people do not believe i did what i did,
It was in one way stupid and a waste of money in those days it took me 12 months to save up to buy them but i had to do what my heart told me to do, But did i think of the money No, they had to satifiy me that they were stable in temperament, had courage and brains, all these stem from good Genes nothing else
They survived my out of this world test no one before or after would do what i did to find out if i had a stable base to breed from to create a winning family. that was back in 1988,
2009 they are still as good and strong as ever probably better i would hope so, The type of bird i created in shape, balance, feather quality, brains and courage is the same now as when i started the family, but i was very careful in the breeding program as to what i introduced and of how it was bred, A few of course did not work that is normal so everything with the foreign blood in and those being tried went out of the loft, nothing left to ruin the family, but as we rarly tried a new bird it was not often that happened and of course if it worked so much the better
So for me Genes are paramount, they tell you so much and they also tell you things that you would rather not have they are nothing but building blocks towhat you want to accheive with the Dog or pigeon, Once you have a sound base it is reasonably easy to train and work, if you have an unstable product life is then a lot harder to get to the goals to want too, in part it can be done but for me i think it is a hard way one i can do without
We will see if my ideas were correct with the breeding of young Izzy, it was my first time matching up two Dogs the way i am used to with other forms of livestock, we will see if it turns out good or bad, But the signs from day one and even more now at 7 months old next week say it will be good if it does then i will allow my self a big grin on my face and a little satisfaction of a job well done
Prager has a wealth of Knowledge with Dogs and i certainly read his posts with interest for i have picked up a lot from reading them as i have from many others on here, we bicker at times but there is a lot of ideas and knowledge to be learned by all of us through these posts, i guess that is the reason we keep coming back, We can never stop learning and i for one have much still to learn
Steve1
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