Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 10

Seeing now you are talking about pedigrees and Lines how do you Guys see this Pup a soft ScHh prospect or as you say a Police prospect, or not at all, Truthful comments please
Steve1
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/608304.html

PSA is a joke.  It does however, give the local trailer parks something to do on the weekends.  Don't forget you can always have a "hang time" competition to add some flavor in the down times or when a dog gets carried off of the field because some dumb ass decoy jammed the bejeezus out of it.  Just a little FYI for GTDAJ, most K9's are washed out sport dogs.  Sport prospects with potential go for big money, usually anywhere from 6 to 20 thousand and in some cases, even more.  PD's can't afford to pay that much.  Why is it that PP guys who feel that their animals are "real" dogs have never set foot on a trial field?  My suggestion??,,,,,go to a big event, work some of the dogs there (if any one would let you) and then tell us that they won't work.  Try and "V" three phases at a big event and tell me how much of your "real" dog is left.  I've trained PD K9's, PPD's and sport dogs and many of them can cross over, but can they excel?   What makes the top sport dogs so superior these days is the fact that they can "hold together" with the intricacies of today's finely tuned training.  I have trained and sold dogs for police K9, personal protection shows, Schutzhund and French Ring, first grip I ever took was from a working K9.  Each one has different areas that test a dog's temperament and train-ability.  Usually the people who chirp the loudest about how their discipline is the best, are the ones that have no experience with the others.

Gustav,
very good point. My male is a Cordon An Sat grandson, a Dante Traho son (National and WUSV competitor).  Both very serious dogs, Dante Traho had a very civil side much like my dog.  He (Dante Traho) excelled at SchH at would have been a great police dog had he gone that route. 

 Jennie, I agree with you about not necessarily breeding to the highest point dog just because he won the WUSV.  But, how do you select a sire for your litter?  Do you use titled dogs?  I know I can look at a dog at the WUSV and see how serious that dog is and what the dog brings.  I may not consider a pup from the winning dog but perhaps one that places well.  I may look at the LG dogs and see one there that didn't make the BSP or the WUSV.  The really good breeders in Europe know where to look and what dogs are serious.  But, there must be some type of  criteria used to select the dogs.  SchH may not be the greatest breed suitability test, but at least it is structured and has requirements.  That's more than the AKC has.  Of course we are free to select the sire and dam based on our own liking.  Some like structure, some more so for working ability, some for good sport prospects.  If I'm in the market for a dog I'll find the one that appeals to me. 

Phil,
I just read your post; well said.  You echo my thoughts exactly, which makes you pretty smart in my book anyway.  ;0)   I stated above that many SchH washouts are sold as Police dogs. 

I am confused by the statement that PP training is real, I don't get it.  It is a sport just like SchH or PSA.  I've said it before if equipment is involved, whether it is a sleeve, suit, or muzzle it is still training and the dog knows it.  So you add a vehicle extraction or a building search for a guy in a suit, the dog knows it's training.  The dog can smell the equipment long before it smells the guy and knows the game is on.  I don't have an issue with this type of training, but overall it's not that much different than SchH.  If the SchH rules were changed to add vehicles or building searches, people would train for that.  I'm not saying SchH is better than PSA or vice versa, just different.  I also agree that people who haven't titled dogs shouldn't knock the sport or the hard work and dedication that goes into it.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Steve1,
I looked at the dog's pedigree and I see one glaring problem.  It's a big problem too.  The problem is that she is not my dog.  That dog has an awesome pedigree and I'm sure works very well.  I really like this pedigree; some super dogs there.  I haven't seen the dog work, but with her pedigree she should be a super SchH prospect. 

Jim

Great minds think alike. 

Hey guys and gals ,

I commend people who title their dogs all the way up to sch3.  I will be honest i love the ob and i have never trained a dog to that level of ob.  I in no way think that all sch dogs are weak.  I think with a lot of dedication from trainers you can title a weak dog to sch 3.  Not to mention any breeders but I have seen some shitty gsds from start to sch 3.  Again this is not a prejudice against sch dogs.  I know that there are some really strong dogs in sch.

Correct me if i am wrong but i dont remember any one saying that just because it is a sch dog it is genetically a total unballenced prey dog, or that it is a weak dog.  To me psa more geared to a real life encounter.  I mean you have to proof for all types of situations.  This goes beyond what people train for for pp dogs.  Honestly Phill have you ever bothered to look objectively without prejudice the requirements to pass psa 3, have you seen how few people have done it?  Your blanket statements sound a lot to me like prejudice.  Or judgeing without knowing what you are talking about.  I could be wrong but from your statements it  sound like a prejudice.  Another beef i have with sch is that is seems like some breeders are training specifically for what will do well in sch.  Now I thought origionally sch was designed to set a certain standard for the breeds working ability and as a way to prevent unworthy dogs from watering down the breed.  But i thought these dogs were probably actual working dogs outside of sch.  I thought possibly the origional gsd after the sch was started did actual work in real life outside of the sport. 

As far as the dog knowing psa is just for sport i guess it depends on the dog.  You could say the same for police dogs i guess it is all just a game untill their first real bite in the streets.  Now is it after their first bite they are not seeing it as a sport.  Is that what you mean?

And by the way i also like the other competitions like fall brawl, the walter ward show and all of the other hill billy back yard shows.  I mean when all of us inbreed uneducated wellfare people get together us have a blast.  that is is our 1970's rusted chevy or ford with the rear bumber half falling off car will get us there.  Usually there is at least 5 or 6 competitors that dont make it due todomestic violence (we love to beat our wifes) or public intox.  I guess I am a typical psa person see I cant spell either. 

Robert

Phil,

Bu the way did you ever train with Bill Kulla?  If so i think i may remerber you.  If you are the same person that i am thinking of you have a nice dog.  I could be wrong though it has been a few years.

Robert, LMAO. Who DOESN'T love Walter Ward???!

To everyone else...what would you call PP training w/no equipment?

Robert, very funny post.
You said:

As far as the dog knowing psa is just for sport i guess it depends on the dog. You could say the same for police dogs i guess it is all just a game untill their first real bite in the streets. Now is it after their first bite they are not seeing it as a sport. Is that what you mean?

Yes, for police dogs things change after the first bite and even more after each additional real bite.  You can create a training environment where the dog is sent on a bad guy and is assaulted and literally has to fight to gain control.  You can try to recreate this, but the screams of anger, terror or pain from the subject, the smell of fear and adrenaline are not easily recreated in training.  The adrenaline rush going through the handler as he is ready to send the dog or is in the fight with the dog at 2 AM in dark woods is also hard to recreate.  The dog reads the handler and if the handler isn't stressed or amped up it doesn't convey to the dog.  So, unless you stress the handler in training as much as you stress the dog it's still just training to the dog. 

We will use simunition in our training scenarios, it is a 9mm paint round.  It hurts if you get shot, we don't wear helmets or body armor, just eye pro.  If you get shot in the arm or face it will leave a nasty cut and bruise.  The bad guys have shotguns with blanks in addition to the sim rounds.   It does make it more realistic and definitely adds stress to the handler because no one wants to get shot.  The dog picks up on the stress and does what a dog does when it's handler is stressed out.  I truly believe until you stress the handler and the dog picks up on it in training, the training is now where close to being "real." 

I can tell you for police dogs that have had street bites, they change.  They track much better after fleeing suspects.  Once they sense that fear and adrenaline they get amped up.  It is much different for them and they are much more serious.  I can tell you from personal experience going into the woods to track armed robbery suspects in the dark can be stressful at times.  The combination of my serious demeanor and the smell of the suspects adrenaline turns my dog into a heat seeking guided missile.  He is all about finding the bad guys.  This is difficult to recreate in training, but we do our best to make it as real as possible.    

Jim

 I think when people say a decent policedog would have no problem to get a SCH3 they bases that on the simple fact the demands for a PSD is so much higher. Therefore a  fine sportdog could do well in competition but fail to do decent policework which put the dog to more of a test in various situations. I know several dogs which do well in sport and also have littermates that are policedogs but themselves don´t pass the selectiontests by the police. They couild have fine drives but mentaly to soft to deal with situations and environments they aren´t used to, but at least I can´t see these drawbacks when  watching the dog doing a sportroutine beacuse it isn´t tested there.

Someone asked how to know what to breed if there are no test like SCH done. Pretty simple, you breed t dogs that you have personal knowledge about, if you breed for a while you often have dogs that you breed yourself and knows pretty well. Most dogs also  are pretty welldocumeneted as far as HD/ED goes(speaking from the situation here in sweden) and even if the dog in question hasn´t a SCH-title it could be a policedog or similar that aren´t untested for their workingability, and which littermates and relatives you have good information about.