Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 4

With the statement of selective breeding for the purpose of schh answers the question. it does happen and yes it his and has already affected the breed!

I have my my family male as as well vvery little prey drive. He was taken in late and was never developed. However anything come near my family or estate/ truck will be met. he is very well trained and discriminate behavior well as well as a good judge of character. My 7 year old daughter and her mother take him everywhere. He is the dog in my picture on the right. Best dog i ever owned as a companion and friend as well as family protection dog. He is a rescue.

However I have a ddr/czech 19month old who has the most real life working potential of any dog i have ever owned. intelligent, balanced, solid nerves, high controlled sustainable drives, has yet to be suppressed( more pressure the more intense he becomes even at 19 months)  yet very social. He came from an all police litter. He was selected at puppyhood and has been honed into the dog he is today. Is he a buddy yes he is. Is his work his primary objective yes he is.  Could he do schh yes he could. However he will be a better suited PSA dog. He will also be certified as a trailing dog early this spring under NTPDA. He was breed for it. not for schh. In fact the breeder i purchased him from purely stated if i had not had intentions to work him in PSA primarily he was going to save him to go into the police force and hope i would select a dog better suited for sport only.

The mals and dutchies dont necessarily have a genetic advantage.

The reason the mal's took off so big in psa was it wasnt formed til what the late 90's or something. SCHH has been a breeding standard for shepherds for years. Very few want to make the cross. The guy who started PSA runs mostly mals as well through his training company. and im actually working with a certified trailing dutchy one of his employees used. So its a preference and a seperate community not an advantage.

Most of the shepherds i have seen come out had no business on the field in the 1st place. I watched 2 get run. However the mali's vs shepherds continues to be a friendly dispute between I and my friends that compete. Me and the assistant director of PSA cut jokes at each other quite often about it. On the flip side I know 2 shepherds(father and son owned) that are moving up through the ranks right now that will be going for there 2's this spring. That have what it takes.

 Yes there are breeders who breeds GSDs not with SCH as a priority, rather a dog that would fit as a good servicedog. I do think this may be more rare in germany/belgium thou, where SCH is what people do most  and breed the dog for, not saying all SCH dogs is worthless. Four points a successfull breeder of servicedog pointed out is,
1. A mentality fit for servicework, natural ability to defend, strong nerves and so on.
2. Robust and athletic build
3.Intelligens, dogs that quickly learns the basic stuff like biting,tracking and searching.
4. Health and vitality without constant nursering

Steve, they are not interchangable, in that a good young dog with high prey drive and little defense/fight drive can become a top sch dog but will wash out of the police academy for many different reasons. But any dog that can be successful as a police dog can be sch titled. Many GS today are prey monsters and many GS today have weak nerves causing problems with sound sensitivites, surface sensitivites, lack of real courage, night issues, new territory issues, water and fire issues, and on and on. These dogs can all be camoflouged to be able to pass a Sch test, but they will flunk out of police school. But a dog tht can pass a police school can always be trained to do SCH it just takes the training. Nothing in sch these days puts any real pressure on the dog so they couldn't pass. That's why Showline dogs have sch degrees but most would not make the grade in police academy. They are not interchangable. I can look at a workingline litter of eight and see maybe 2 dogs with police potential and yet see 6 that would be able to be trained to a Sch title. The other 4 dogs may make good sport dogs but will not pass the 16 week academy that involves all the conditions the dog will encounter.
The Sch of thirty years ago was a much better barometer because aspects that were still in the test,(like 6 ft wall which tested mental and physical toughness, dogs given points for fight drive, real reed hits, not being disqualified for not outing), all contributed to a much hardier ,tougher dog on average that passed the test. Thus the transition to police work was much higher in terms of numbers. Dogs were 45% prey-55% defense/fight in those days, so you didn't see the spectacular long bite that so many uninformed people think designates a "super" dog, but more tough, intense, dogs that would fight you to the end. This post is not denigrating either type, but don't be fooled into thinking the two(sport and real working) are interchangable. In some cases yes, but in far too many cases no, that's why Mals and Dutchies have placed a lot of German Shepherds in the unemployment line!!

well said

Wow nice discussion:

I say you get out of your dog what you put into.
Not every dog from a litter is the whole package., If you do not know how to bring the fire out, your fault (assuming the dog has it). If you are not willing to take the extra mile, the dog will do exactly what you teach him/her.
I hate routines. I still do them since that is what people look at for breeding. I preffer my dog to be an Unit, working, thinking unit. I like to challenge them and see what their weeknesses are and to be honest they will not learn that on strictly Shutzhund training only. I like to see how the dog does in a very, very dark building on a slick floor with two decoys...
The true work is the one that finds the faults, weaknesses of the dog and make its way out so I can FIX IT. (training mistakes)
scenarios that test dog's thinking, decicion making (attack on me by asecond decoy while he is already on a bite) PSA scenarios....

pack 

I never said they were interchangeable that is what others have said not me, what I said and this is the third and last time i will repeat it
When you have a Pup it is the owner who trains it be it for a career in the Police
Or a career in the Schh Sport but to name two
What i said was this you cannot prove one dog to be better in one career or weaker in another unless that Dog is tested in both
So unless you can prove Physically that a Police Dog will do well and adapt to the sport of SchH and on the other hand a ScHh dog CANNOT do the job of a police dog if both are RETRAINED then it is hypothetical
 Some kennels say this that the Pups in a litter they are producing will be suitable for different types of work, Now as we know a lot is sales talk But not when you know the breeder and there qualifications, but they are going on breeding what the dogs have produced in the past
Plus the fact you do not have every Pup from a litter go into the sport of ScHh some go to the police some go as you guys put it as Protection Dogs 
It is what you train the Pup for, Some say a ScHh dog is not suitable for Police work but a Police dog is suitable for ScHh sport How stupid can some think that way if both dogs are retrained who is to know otherwise until it is tested, That way of thinking is a one tracked mind nothing else
One last thing
The Current WUSV Champion then according to some here would never make a police dog if it was retrained to do that sort of work
But a Police Dog the same age as the WUSV Champion would make a viable ScHh dog
that is what is being said but i have elaborated a bit on the WUSV champion The Mind boggles at the thought of how some have such a one tracked mind Proof is in the pudding so to speak words mean nothing without proof
For instance i do know of one ScHh 2 Dog, now working as a Qualified Police Dog in Belgium in the  coast area of Belgium
But then perhaps the Guys he catches must have a sleeve on there arm for him to attack or perhaps the Dog was not brainwashed long enough in the SchH sport for it not to be able to adapt to another job
It is like saying that an Attorney cannot change his job from that to one as a Bus Conductor, of course Dogs can adapt Not all but  a fair percent can, then a fair percent are only good to sit in front of a fire anyway
Steve1

Steve, This is my last time also. First, police trainers do not train puppies for police work. Police schools acquire dogs that are outta puppy range and are referred to as green dogs. Do you want to know why??? People acquire puppies to do the sport of Sch ALL the time. And in high percent of times are successful. Do you want to know why???? Second, I gave you about four or five reasons why a Sch dog will get washed out of a police academy "NO MATTER WHO HANDLES THE DOG", Could you give me a reason why a police dog couldn't be trained to do SCH, no matter who handles the dog. A good trainer can cross trainer any dog that has the tools(nerve, courage, drive, etc) to pass a Sch test. Shit, weak nerved showlines can pass a sch test. What would stop a police dog from being crosstrained to sch....answer that question for me instead of insinuating I am stupid. Nobody is talking about WUSV dogs, they are .5 percent of Sch dogs. I am talking about Sch dogs. I have worked with a lot of police dogs and never with one that couldn't pass a sch test. May not be WUSV but only you inserted that part, but could have easily been crosstrained to PASS the test.
If you understand why people get puppies for Sch dogs and police trainers don't get puppies but green dogs, you will understand the difference.
Lastly, many many police dogs were NOT trained by the owner to be police dogs, they are dogs raised with just regular upbringing and prove to be too much for the owners, and subsequently are donated/or sold to police schools. Why????Because the main ingredient to be a police dog is not the "training" but the intestinal fortitude of the dog. YOU can't train that and it doesn't have to be nutured by a person raising a dog for the dog to have it and the academy to develop it..Peace!!

Steve

I agree there is some validity about testing the individual dog.  We are after all generalizing to a degree.  I would be interested in what your dog trainer friends take is on all of this.

Robert