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by troublelinx on 31 December 2009 - 00:12
As mentioned before, my washout pup from good bloodlines was 8 week old when I got her. She was only luke warm in the work department. The second time I intentionally searched for an older pup. When I say she was green I mean that to the utmost. Great lines, basically raised as a farm dog. The breeder wanted to see how she would develope. She was 1.5 years old with no training probably not a lot of socialization, very little drive work. Absolutely green. But I saw a lot of potential in her. Even still it took time for her to adjust to her new environment, and I really did not understand the ability level of this dog untill I worked with her for a while. At times she is like gas and a match, HOT. Imagine how she would have been if I got her as a pup. The only sibling in the litter was her brother who was also for sale at the time. I choose the girl over the boy. Later the boy pup was sold and now works with a department in Ohio dual purpose. SO I would have a tough time buying a puppy there are definate advantages to looking at a green dog. Dont like pertrained dog either because it is more difficult for me to see their raw temperment, although I am sure this is not an issue for some.
by Jenni78 on 31 December 2009 - 00:12
Go figure. The 2.5yr old green dog that belonged to some dumb girl made a police K9 with NO PRIOR training for such.
What I'm trying to say is it has so much to do with genetics that anyone who believes it's "all how you raise them" (that phrase makes me nauseous) is sorely mistaken and dangerously misled. Furthermore, while you can condition a dog to LOOK strong on a sports field (partly because they know damn well it's not for real), you cannot as easily condition a dog for the different things that could come up in daily work as a K9. Thus, you need the TRULY, genetically, strong dog and THEN you can train it/condition it/whatever.
Not to say I've been overly impressed with many PSDs I've seen lately, but in general, in a perfect world, they would be much stronger dogs than your average Sch. dog. A Sch. dog has memorized a routine. This is inarguable. No one is saying that NO Sch. dog can be a PSD, but just saying it is much more likely to work the other way around.
by Slamdunc on 31 December 2009 - 01:12
Ok, as many of you know I raised my current police K9 from a 7 week old puppy. I started him in SchH and converted him to a Police K9 at 2 1/2 years old. I donated him to my PD so I could use him as my police K9. This dog is a high end Czech GSD, loaded in drive. Enough drive for 3 GSD's or two mali's ;), but with a clear head and genetically full crushing bites. When I did SchH many several high end competitors, (BSP, Nationals and WUSV) said he is a National level dog. So, I have some experience with this.
I will say that a GSD with the proper temperament and working drives should excel at SchH, PSA and Police work. Here is the big difference: SchH is a sport and is judged in trials. For a dog to be a top competitor it must have a full, not necessarily hard grip. The judge can only judge the grip by the fullness and intensity of the dog. For Police K9's a full grip is not required, but a hard grip is.
Remember, a full hard grip has a large genetic component. SchH breeders who breed for this can easily breed dogs capable of Police work. Now, many dogs who do not do well in SchH because of shallow grips can make excellent police dogs. Remember, we don't judge our K9's on depth of grip, that is icing on the cake. I know many GSD's breeders that breed dogs for SchH and Police work. One of my dog's brother's will compete at the SchH Nationals, his other brother has gone to the Boston PD. So, pretty exceptional sport litter, 2 or 3 K9's, 1 SAR dog, I happy family pet and one going to end high competition. I will also be competing in some National K9 events with my dog next year, possible SchH as well. I know of other K9 handlers that also SchH titled their police dogs just for fun.
Many Police dogs could never be SchH dogs for various reasons and many more SchH dogs would never make it as Police dogs. However, many could easily do both. Genetics is a huge part, but I disagree with Jenni78, nurture is equally as important IMHO. Many sport dogs, whether the sport is SchH or PSA are capable of being police dogs. Keep in mind that PSA is a sport also, if there is equipment involved it's a sport to the dog. The equipment can be sleeves, suits, muzzles the dog can smell all of that a mile away. PSA may be more challenging but it is still a sport, just like PP training is IMO.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by Jenni78 on 31 December 2009 - 02:12
So, Jim, what do you disagree with? I don't see the disagreement.
I would not trust a dog I had to "nurture" into PSD material. You would know more about that than I, but that's my personal feeling on that. Perhaps my standards are too high (and they might be from what I've seen lately passed off as a PSD). If the dog doesn't have the strength genetically, I sure as hell wouldn't push my luck and trust him with my life...but that's just me and I'm just a dumb girl. I also would not feel comfortable selling a dog to be used as such that I did not have full confidence in (in terms of their genetic makeup). I knew this dog inside and out in terms of what he will do in certain situations, and it wasn't because I nurtured him to be any specific way. Nurture can mask/over ride/hone certain traits, but IMHO, I want to start out with a dog who suits the purpose, and not try to make the purpose suit the dog, if that makes any sense.
My dog that's a K9 was certainly not nurtured to be such..(I never ever thought I would part with him), although I know enough I guess not to fuck one up and ruin it like some sport people do. LMAO.
EDITED TO ADD- Hey Jim, I just reread your post, and I think I understand what you're saying now. I still don't see the disagreement, if I understand you. Genetics is huge- we agree. My point was that you cannot nurture something into an animal that doesn't genetically have it. On the flip side, good genetics can camouflage shitty training.
by Jenni78 on 31 December 2009 - 02:12
by Gustav on 31 December 2009 - 04:12
Discuss the intestinal fortitude because that is the crux of this discussion. An active police dog needs to possess this trait to work under all conditions, obstacles, threats. The degree may vary but they need to have demonstrated these traits in getting certified. A sch dog does not have to have intestinal fortitude to pass a Sch test, some do, some can cross over, but many don't and therein lies the difference. Sch doesn't test for this inner trait as it has been watered down by requirements and judging. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong, but my opinion is based on having done both and not speculation. I also understand the points of Steve and Jim, but I am speaking generically and not in terms of top sport or top score. Just Sch vs Police work. Not knocking any type of dog or anybodies opinion, just how I've experienced things...peace!
by steve1 on 31 December 2009 - 07:12
Is there a language barrier here because i really think there is
I have not said that a Police Dog cannot do ScHh work quite the opposite
I am quoting other Guys on here who say or think that a Police Dog can turn its self to ScHh but a ScHh dog cannot turn or be trained to do Police Work
In other words some of the Guys here are only saying that a Police Dog can do other work but a ScHh dog will remain a ScHh dog that is NOT what i am saying
I say Both can be RETRAIN to do each others work
And i know Police Dogs are not trained for that specific job as Puppies, i say again and i stated off this in my early posts My bit i mean Quoting a Pup as being the Basic material to start with, Me i do not go in for buying a trained dog in anything just to say i have this or that, that has no interest for me I always want to start from the Basics I.e Puppy
Now i say again
IF a Police Dog can be trained to do ScHh work then so can a ScHh dog be retrained to do Police work and i have quoted an example in my last post, It is others on here who say only a Police Dog can change its work that is what i am disputing
As i said One Guy here has worked with both ScHh and Police for 40 plus years
One of the Very best Dog handlers Trainers in Belgium without question, I will ask him on Sunday when we go training to here what he says about the difference of say a trained Police Dog being retrained To ScHh work, and a Trained ScHh Dog being retrained to do Police work
I say it can be done, without too much of a problem
a German Shepherd Dog is a very versatile animal and it is its brains that they posses that attract many to the breed in the first place
Steve1
by Bob McKown on 31 December 2009 - 10:12
My 2 cents:
We are all smart enough(or should be) to know for fact that there are lines in german shepherds (as well as all other breeds) that carry certain genetic traits some desirable some not as much. Some lines work better for herding some are known for great tracking some bring more aggression some bring tons of prey ect... the goal in all breeding should be the "well balanced dog" that should be the ultimate goal after this goal is achieved or with this goal in mind for breeding you can do both with the dog bred with the goal aforementioned as the standard.
The problem we run into is extremes in breeding, this takes the advantage of versatility or utility away from the dog.
To say that there are not people who breed to the extreme is a statement of lunacy I will not make. It is not good for the dog or the breed but sadly it is done more then not.
We will all agree that not all puppies born from a single breeding will be top champion or working line dogs thats a given as we know genetics aren't evenly given if they were all of you would be as pretty as me (humor people humor) somebody always gets the short end of the stick. But a litter breed for balance with working utility as it,s goal (as should be) has the best chance of being good prospect for any given task trained for.
Nurturing of a young dog or pup has BIG influence on it,s ability to work any one who knows any thing will not disagree with this you can take the hardest dog known to man and ruin it by inappropriate raising of the dog. But again why would you want to breed the "hardest dog know to man" since this is a extreme breeding?
This is my opinion so if you don,t like I don,t care. The term Schutzhund is misused and has been for many years if you breed for Schutzhund you breed for a very utilitarian dog (or should) if you breed for a very specific drive only to be prominate in the litter it is a extreme(prey,aggression,ect...) the "sport" aspect of dog training has effected the bred here in the U.S. to the point that you see more of the drivey nervy dogs that lack there utilitarian qualities.
A well bred (proper) pup should have as much ability to do either of the topic qualities asked for by the original poster with different training requirements it,s exposed to during the training programs.
There will always be dogs that excel in specific training situations from any breeding or any breed. some dogs work well some dogs work well laying infront of the fire and some work well laying on your feet in cold weather.
by Scoutk9GSDs on 31 December 2009 - 11:12
The truth is that standards vary dramatically across the board in bioth Schutz and police k9. So to me......we all need to raise those standards and stop arguing about the differences and what is better. RAISE THE STANDARD and do NOT vary, do not give in to politics and peer pressure.
by Bob McKown on 31 December 2009 - 11:12
If your going to emphasize "proper training" which I agree with a Schutzhund dog with proper training should have as good of a chance of passing police work as any other if the premise of proper training is the issue.
The standard doesnt need raised it just needs to be obsereved,
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