Working Line GSD Is there a difference in breeding? sport vs. work - Page 8

Blitz Vom Drachenhaus Started in Schutzhund currently on Partol.

Hey Bob, one of my last breedings was to Andy Maly Vah, retired police dog who THEN made sch3 and then passed PSA1(I was there for that and was the only dog that passed that day...talk about tough), and that's why I bred to him...real dog!! BTW, I kept son of his, trained him for pass 20 months and now he is in the police academy going to college. I think we are on same page.

Give:

       It,s obvious that along with knowing every Schutzhund dog ever bred and trained you now also are a supreme judge of Law Enforcement agencies...I bow to your supreme being... Your comment on suit work again shows your ignorance on the subject. 



Gustav:

Sounds like a good dog...But we won,t know till Give puts his seal of approval on him :)

 

 

I think most of you bob, gustav, jim and some other agree that is not about the test but about the dog. Sure you can have dog that can switch between sport and work, but they are hard to come by. I don't care if you breed to top WUSV compettior this will not guarantee that the dog will produce a single working dog. I seen PPD dogs with no titles producing better and more consistant than some of the top dogs out there. The breeder that I got my last dog from is example of this. His male has no titles, hard like a nail, and he constantly outproduce himself. He produces better dogs than he is, and he been breed to many different females, no linebreedings in first 5 generation, so if you looking for a good working dog, first you need to find good producer of these dogs. And yeah his dogs been placed with police force and private security firms, as well as pet homes. One dog that was runt of the litter that no one wanted turned into beast, strong big, and hard like a nail. It's always about the dog, and good balanced drives, a dog that can easily switch between pray and defense and his nerves stay in tact no matter of the situation.

Lots of things to answer here,
I agree with most of what's being said.  Gustav, my friend, I agree with you as usual.  I said "top competitor" to illustrate the difference between the evaluation process for SchH vs Police work.  Many excellent police dogs can be titled in SchH but will never be "top competitors."  Many SchH dogs could easily be converted to patrol work and do a suitable job with the right training.  Most top SchH competition dogs should do very well at both, at least the ones I've seen. 

Now many SchH washouts are sold as Police K9's and PPD's.  Sometimes, because they are too hard and have trouble outing, some are from fantastic pedigrees and want to fight the man and think SchH is not a game.  Many green dogs coming form Europe were not suitable for SchH because of bites that are not 100 % full, so why waste time training in a sport that scores a dog on that basis with an average dog.  I would say in my experience more SchH washouts can become good Police dogs than Police dog washouts can become good SchH prospects.  In Germany the Police have a budget per dog, I think right now it's around $3,000 as the max they can spend on  a dog.  With the US market currently paying around $7,000 for K9's why would a vendor in Germany sell the dogs cheaper to the German PD?  Also, sport people will pay big money for dogs as well. 

Jenni78, when I was talking about nurture I believe it is two fold: 1: from birth to 7 - 8 weeks.  The environment the pup is raised in from the dam to the breeder.  This is critical IMO, I think 60 % comes from the dam and a large part is the maternal naturing and genetics.  My dog's mother, Anita Auto dam has produced several National level dogs and many Police and SAR dogs.  2: I believe the breeder has a critical role in the puppies development as well.  Jody, the breeder is fantastic with her pups and has tremendous experience whelping, raising and training dogs.  The fact Anita has produced so many great dogs is in part to Jody's care development of the pups.  Next, I think how the pup is raised with the new family is also important.  So, I think we are in agreement you can not nurture something that isn't there. 

Scout, I agree with you but would like to clarify this point:

So what does Sch tell you about a dog? Courage? Scenting ability? trainability? How biddable the dog is? Stability?

Sch tells you nothing about any of those things. It does tell you that the dog likes the game, can memorize a pattern, can handle mindless repetition, can focus on a ball,tug or food oblivious to the world around him and can manage some control on the field. Stellar accomplishments wouldn't you say?

SchH can tell you a lot about all of those things.  If you can read a dog and watch it track, you can learn things about the dog.  Obedience can tell you volumes about a dog's mental state, drives and intensity.  The bite work when done properly can tell you just as much about a dog.  Through the obedience and bite work you can look directly into the dog's mind and read a dog very well.  A SchH trial may not tell you everything, but observing the dog in training absolutely will.  I like Bob's method to training as he has described here many times.  Bite work should be real.  I know many SchH dogs that work very seriously and I'd be happy to have as a Police K9.  Some dogs do not have that civil side and do better worked more in prey for SchH.  That's fine as that is what the owner needs to do to title their pet and compete.  I don't see a big problem with that, not everyone is going to the BSP or WUSV. 

Continued....

continued,


My K9 is loaded in prey, he's a prey monster as some of you describe. He is also loaded in defense and will bite you for real with little warning. he's had several street bites this year and they usually require a hospital visit. As serious as he is, he's higher in prey. Prey is vital for a police dog, SchH dog. PSA dog. Prey drive brings speed. Anything moving fast to my dog is prey, whether it's running at him or away from him. Once he catches it it's a different story. Too many people discount SchH as a prey only, robotic routine. When trained properly it certainly is not, IMO

Jim

So what does Sch tell you about a dog? Courage? Scenting ability? trainability? How biddable the dog is? Stability?

Sch tells you nothing about any of those things. It does tell you that the dog likes the game, can memorize a pattern, can handle mindless repetition, can focus on a ball,tug or food oblivious to the world around him and can manage some control on the field. Stellar accomplishments wouldn't you say?


Saying that SCH tells you nothing about a dog is extremly ignorant statment. SCH wont tell you everything but you can be sure it will give you at least 80% answears to most question.

Gustav
No i was not referring to you in particular you were not in my mind at the time of writing it, But if the Cap fits Buddy then wear it,
No much point in coming the high and mighty with me none of it washes with me and that goes for anyone else as well
The point of fact here is that many are so Scathing of ScHh work Dogs and there idea is that is all the Dogs can do
But if the same Dogs had not been trained in ScHh then a good percent would make good work dogs in other areas but few on this thread think so, simply because they work in the ScHh sport
And by saying that stupidly it means that ScHh dogs are the dregs in the Working Line of German Shepherd Dogs and that is not so, And regards the Worlds in the ScHh sport there is no higher, Club Dog in the Sport are 10 a penny Dogs that scrape through the Grades Just as most of the Show lines do But i talk only of the very top Dogs in the Sport and they are not that plentiful, Not over here in Belgium and not in the USA and that is considering the size of that country
Top Dogs are Rare, Top Horses are Rare, Top Racing Pigeons are Rare But there are 1000's middle or lower down the road
As i have said let it be proved without some shouting off there mouths because they cannot prove what they say regarding Sports Dogs not being able to do work such as Police Work if the Dog is trained for it Many Police Dogs will do the ScHh work but there will not be many great dogs come out of it that is the law of averages in anything which is TOP DRAW humans included
As i said talk is cheap and there is a lot of cheap  talk from some on here
Now if my words upset some that is too bad They talk stupid i treat them as being stupid,
And before anyone comes up with the idea i am not in a good mood and need to chill out as has been said in the past, then they will be wrong but i treat people as i find them
Face to face or in writing it makes no difference to me, i say it as it is
Steve1

Someone jump down my throat if I'm  wrong...but I took Scout's statement to mean it doesn't tell you anything with regard to courage, etc. because it can so easily be conditioned for. You can watch a trial and see a dog that looks impressive, but you really know nothing of the dog's natural temperament, because this routine has been done hundreds and hundreds of times. The dog knows the routine and good training can mask a lot of issues w/regard to these qualities.

I think it was Jim...talking about how in training this isn't true, and I would mostly agree. Watching a dog the first time he/she trains for something will tell you far more than watching the 'finished product.' We have all known examples of really weak dogs built up enough by repetition to look strong on the field.