e-collar controversy - Page 1

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deathrow dogpack

by deathrow dogpack on 30 April 2010 - 15:04

some are for and some are against.  i happen to like having this tool in my toolbox.  proper use is key as with any type of training equipment.  i would like your feedback on this video.  even if you are against, you will be entertained.

joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_5SPdDz9I

 


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 30 April 2010 - 16:04

I found that video extremely annoying! Victoria is very soft-spoken, and the gangsta rap music VERY loud. I'd be struggling to hear what she was saying, then my ears would get blasted with the music!  It kind of gives the impression that he didn't want her to be heard.

Also, I didn't see the trainer using a shock collar to train, he was using TREATS!

Not a very convincing video!

My opinion? A shock collar is a tool, like any other training aid. It can be used properly or misused. However, due to its nature, it is MUCH easier for someone to misuse it. than other types of training aids. The harm done by misuse can destroy a dog, especially a soft dog lacking in confidence.

I have yet to find a dog that I felt needed a shock collar. However, if I had one that was a fence jumper, or couldn't be cured of running away to chase rabbits while being trained off leash, I'd use one.

My problem with this sort of collar is that the dog learns to respect the collar, NOT the handler. I've seen a dog, a large doberman,  totally blow the family members off, until one of them was brave enough to get the collar on him.  Same thing with those stupid shake cans and rattle paddles.

Training aids are no substitute for a good trainer who understands what he/she is doing. Notice how focused on the trainer the dogs are in the video. I'm willing to be he could achieve the same results WITHOUT the collar.


LAVK-9

by LAVK-9 on 30 April 2010 - 20:04

Added the clip so it doesn't have to be copy and pasted. www.youtube.com/watch
Example of bad e-collar use.My friend put one on his dog that has NEVER had real training or had an e-collar on.He fried her when she went past a tree that he doesn't want to to go past and had her yelp and jump out of her skin and come running to him. He thought it was funny. I had to bite my tongue and not totaly go off on him but told him that isn't how he should use it. Of course though he doesn't listen to me so I just bite my tongue now. Not worth arguing with an idiot.

GSDtravels

by GSDtravels on 30 April 2010 - 20:04

Embedded the clip:


GSDtravels

by GSDtravels on 30 April 2010 - 20:04

I have an e-collar but have never been schooled in the proper use, so haven't used it.  I did put it on my own arm and it was unpleasant but not what I would call painful.  I would say that my favorite tool is much more uncomfortable, the pinch/prong collar -  I put that on my arm too, and it hurt!  Of course, it's not really the same as putting it on a thick mane, compared to a naked arm, but still...

deathrow dogpack

by deathrow dogpack on 30 April 2010 - 21:04

thank you lav-k9 and gsd travels for putting those links on there.  we have all had the misfortune to see the e-collar thrown on and used as a way to kick the dogs butt.   we have also scene the pet owner throw on the pinch and drive is diminished and you have a dog performing in a way similar to a pony at the fair.  goes round and round in a circle while loads of children get on and off.

i see dogs that are happy.  showing good attention.  e-collar used in conjunction with food.

i say great video.  i understand sunsilver if c+c music factory is not your thing.  we all have different tastes in music.  that is what makes the world interesting.

by beast on 30 April 2010 - 21:04

 I personally do not like training collars of any type - but I have a special kind of dislike for the E-collar. Sure their is a time and place for everything, but I feel the E-collar is over-used and almost always used incorrectly. I don't think they should be for sale to the general public. But that will likely never happen. 


deathrow dogpack

by deathrow dogpack on 30 April 2010 - 21:04

what?  no training collars of any type?  how on earth do you portray a clear message to your dog?  what about a dog that is biting people unwaranted?  what about a dog that jumps on your grandmother when she comes to visit?  how did your dog learn that you are the most fun in the room?  please elaborate a bit beast.

by beast on 30 April 2010 - 21:04

 I portray a clear message to my dog by using positive reinforcement. I do operant conditioning with them - I enforce the behaviors I want to see and ignore the ones I don't want to see. Obviously in dangerous situations, this isn't always an acceptable way to deal with the dog. I would never risk the safety of my dog or others for the sake of following a method. Sometimes counter-conditioning can really help dogs with behavior issues. I have seen this work on overly fearful and/or aggressive dogs in the past. In the case where the dog is biting people unwarranted I would call a behaviorist right away! I have personally never dealt with this situation, so I can only offer theory. Hypothetically, I would make sure the dog was contained safely. This means a muzzle, well fitting flat collar, leash and possibly a fence! I would then attempt to decipher WHY the dog was biting people. After that I would try to figure out what triggers the dog to react. I would then come up with a formula to teach the dog to access other behaviors before biting. I would teach him stress reduction techniques. We would work on OB and trust building activities on a regular basis. Ultimately, I would want to teach the dog the appropriate way to react to the situation. To me, my relationship with my dog is of the utmost importance. I'm not at all saying those who use training collars and aversive methods have poor relationships with their dogs - this couldn't be farther from the truth. But to me, it's more important to encourage trust, then it is to encourage results. 

I'm no expert on +R, I've only started ACTUALLY learning about it (I've been using this method for a long time, just never cared to look up the terminology or look beyond what I needed to know for my dogs). So my answer may well be backassward, but their are many well-respected ethologists and trainers who often use these methods (+R) to train troubled dogs. Including dogs with territorial aggression and possessive aggression. You may want to look into them for a more accurate description of how to deal with an aggressive dog without using aversion.

My dogs know I'm the most important person in the room from experience. I control all resources, I always interact with them positively. They're well trained and very happy animals.

As I said before. In an emergency situation, I would never risk my dogs safety for the sake of being positive. If my dog is biting someone, or being bit you can bet your ass that I'll stop the situation any way I have to....even if that means physical altercation.


I'm not trying to be preachy or anything. I'm not trying to force my method onto anyone. Just offering a different take I guess. 

ETA: I AM NOT doing this method any justice at all. If you would like more information from people who DO know what they're talking about - check out; Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff, Turid Rugaas, Patricia McConnell, Kelly Dunbar.
 


LAVK-9

by LAVK-9 on 30 April 2010 - 21:04

I enforce the behaviors I want to see and ignore the ones I don't want to see


If you just ignore them and don't deal with them those behaviors are always going to be there and might come up when you least expect it or at a bad time.  I can't imagine only doing positive reinforcement. It isn't natural.Even as pups they are use to their moms and litter mates putting them in their place with a bite.(correction) I'm not saying that the dog has to get a beating but a fair and firm correction that it remembers and wants to do what is right to avoid a correction.(whether it is collar or e-collar) Through that there is more consistency.IMPO
This is always going to be a topic that people disagree on. As the saying goes....There is one thing that 2 trainers will agree on  is that the 3rd one is wrong.

Added: Have to say I can't stand Victoria!! I have seen her show once and I wanted to slap her silly.





 


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