OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 10

We did have the helper hide and jump out at her

Please DO NOT do this again, for a while, Go back to basics. Build a foundation. Don't throw stuff at her ore confusing the dog.

the same day she showed signs of lameness (prior to) and she reacted with a fierce bark then tried to get away instead of attacking.

Big mistake right there. That "fierce bark" you are describing is actualy out of fear. Putting too much unecessary stress on a dog who is not ready for it.

As soon as she realized who it was, again ignored the sleeve went to sniffing around, threat gone etc.

she didn't realize shit who it was, she was stressed to the ax and went into avoidance.

Please pay attention now. Dogs can only offer 4 different behaviors when they are under stress or threat, okay. There is no fifth. 1)Agression and attack (what we idealy want, but that will come later, NOT NOW). Submission. Avoidance (cut and run). Ignoring the threat (you are not there, sniffing grass, hoping the threat will go away etc...).

Here she is almost two weeks ago. The helper tried disquising himself with a hockey mask and used a trashcan lid instead of a whip.

Do not do this again. Do not use whip threat for a while. Back to basics, Debbie, build a damn foundation first. This Jason janitor stuff can come later when the dog is mature, confident and have been to the dance many times. It is very counter productive now.

We also did this off field and even used her truck to see if she would defend it.

She won't. Don't do anything but prey work for a while. Stay on the field.

You're not fooling me! Total refusal to bite. Checked him out, knew who he was and basically said I'm done.

Don't do this stuff again. It is opposite of what you want. You are trying to teach the dog damn algebra abd trigonometry when she is not ready for it and can't even do additions and multiplications yet.

What the dog learned here? If I am threatened... I will shut down and they will leave me alone and the threat will pass. That is not the message and lesson you want to teach her, yet you did. Either way, back to basics, BTB. Back to basics. Prey. Dog always wins. End on a high note. Shorter sessions. 2 or max 3 bites, not 15 minutes! The whole session should be in the field. bark, bark, bark. Helper runs like a bitch zigzagging around. Fly by. Miss. Fly by, miss. RUn laterally - bite. Little resistance by him, not much. Slip. You run like a bitch with her in a circle. Cradle, helper away from her, not looking at her. Cradle, she cals. Either she spits or you out her. One more fly by and a miss. One ore bite, slip immediately. RUn the fuck back to the car with her with a sleeve in her mouth all the way to the car. Give her water. Pet her a bit, Stay with her for a minute, lots of soft praise. Offer ore water, get the fuck back int he crate. Return with the sleeve. Sit and observe other dogs.


If I hadn't had her on leash she might still be going but I pulled her back around and she then recognized him but refused to engage. Just started sniffing around on the ground. We called it a day then.

Never do this again. The dog MUST win. All the time. Every time. Always end on a high note, always end with a win.

You may have something there as this is one big game to Echo...Lawrence is her favorite chew toy...or was. He came late one day and I was sitting with my back to the parking area when he came up. Echo spotted him right away. The wind was behind her and he noticed her watching him so he started bobbing and weaving thru the cars and playing peek a boo etc. and she went on full alert, deep warning bark, put her front feet up on a low bench and challenged him. As soon as he got close enough for her to recognize him she was all over him to get her pats and loving but she was impressive for a moment.

do not fraternize your dog with the helper. she is never to see him again in any settign except on the field, ready to work, with a sleeve. she has you to play silly games with.


We use a regular trial (jute) sleeve. Maybe we should try an intermediate sleeve instead. She really does not care for jute. Now if it was covered with leather I think she would love it. Her favorite thing is the leather piece on a flirt pole. She goes ape if she sees another dog getting to play with "her" toy.

she doesnt come out of the crate until it's her turn. no going ape over nothing. helper is ready for your dog, go get your dog, go to the field imediately. go work. 2 minutes. go to the car. repeat.

Echo will let go of the sleeve and go for the whip/stick if it comes too close to her head
but doesn't seem to mind a stick hit or two. She has never ducked a hit. She just bites poorly and whines in frustration while on the sleeve when she doesn't want to play anymore.

session too long. cut it shorter, make her want more. 2, max 3 bites and echo gets the fuck out of there in first quarter really wanting more. For now.

I always worried she would lick the helper instead of biting him but she used to go at it with gusto.

No licking, no nothing, just work on the field.

Last October at our trial, the helper we had for the trial put her on the sleeve and our training director was astounded because he didn't think she was ready (age then was 13mo). Her first experience with it was to bite (a total stranger) let go, sniff the sleeve then re-engage. No problem.

snifing is a problem. once the dog commits to bite, no sniffing, no bullshit. just a bite, till sleeve is slipped. we got the confidence issue and some avoidance to deal with now. BTB, DebbieSue, BTB decoy.


Never looked back until just recently. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it was her being in heat and nothing more.

BTB.

Can't type anymore, too tired. There is hope for this dog, but again, you and the guy need to discuss stuff. hoopefuly i helped and something good might come out of all my typing. I hope it does and would be glad if it does.

Adi, you are so spot on :)
Your dissection of the OP thread is really helpful and reads well.

Great post Adi. TY for your time, I hope it helps Deb and others.

Adi I hope the original poster takes the time to read, digest and understand  your very carefully thought out and well written post.  That was very kind of you, and as others have said,  right on target.   

Me too, Wolfinbok, me too, those dogs are my favorites and they are the best dogs for me and the most fun to train!

Adi
Spot on with your posts  Never seen a helper wearing a mask before that is something i do not want to see again
it serves no purpose at all except to achieve the opposite of what is wanted
Steve1

Adi,

WOW!!!

That is some awesome info and I sooooo appreciate the time and effort it took for you to go thru everything with so much detail.  I am going to go over it again and again until I have it straight in my head and I will take it up with my trainer. 

THANK YOU!

Deb

Hello Debbie. You are welcome.

Yes, I know you appreciate the effort, that's why the effort was given, I can pretty much asses who has their heart in the right place and who is a trollish bullshitter and in this case, I deemed it warranted a response.


Only way you will get "there" where you want to be besides willm which you seem to have is - time and experience, there is no other way and no shortcut.

We live in a country and in age of instant gratification, but in this case, that doesn't work, patience young jedi, patience.

the thing about dog training is when they are young, raw and undeveloped, the hanlder, helper and everyone else has to work soo much and so hard to get the dog where it should be. As time passes, you will see your dog work mmore and ore and you do less and less.

there will come time, if you and your dog stick to it, you can have a damn daiquiri in your hand, stand around the blind and chat over the fence with your buddies and the dog on the field will be busting her ass working. But, to get there is a bitch.

Dogs of your age, fro 15 months to 2 and 1/2 years are the toughest for helpers to work on, they really need to work them. It is also very easy to make mistakes with them REAL FAST, as you guys seeed to have.

I do feel the dog can ake it if you stick with her and have an appropriate plan.

Your helper also seems like his heart is int he right place, he just needs more street cred.

I don't know how far Nate Harves is from you guys, but he is a hell of a teaching helper and your helper should talk to him, maybe going over to him or bringing him over to you guys. Your helper and everyone else would benefit a lot from some experienced guidance and it can only help.

Polished dog, the one that knows its shit and has the screws set on tight is a joy to see and behold, joy for a handler, joy for a helper and joy for the dog. Almost like a warm up for "real work" aka younger dogs.

Do not be afraid to ask questions, don't listen to negative people, trolls, assholes, naysayers and people that have nothing constructive to add and best of luck.