OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 11

Haven't read every single post but I agree with Slamdunc so far.  Haven't read much past page 2 but it does tell volumes.
I will go back and read the rest when I have more time but so far I do agree w/Jim.

Jen

Hey Debisue, Wa'sup Girl?

It's been a while since this thread was current but I've just now read it, so it's new to me!  What I wanted to add to this discussion is something that some folks may not appreciate about the schutzhund scene in America, at least out here on the plains.  And that is the scarcity of training opportunities and the vast distances that sometimes separate clubs and the people and their dogs who might like to have a go at schutzhund.  I only wish that I lived close enough to your club to participate with you all, green helpers and all.  Now, to some that might sound stupid in consideration of how much of this discussion has revolved around the possibility that your helper is under-experienced.  I'm not saying that it's not true that you all might have less than optimal levels of experience.  But what are you going to do?  I suppose you could just pack it in, wait a few years and HOPE that the level of experience of the folks working with the club advances sufficiently to justify your participation while you are choosing not to participate.  From where I sit, that doesn't look like the best approach.  I'm pretty sure that too many clubs have folded due to lack of participation, and that's not good, is it?  And what if part of the fault lies with the temperament of your girl?  Take a good look at your girl and say, "Baby, you just ain't got what it takes!" and head to the nearest shelter to drop her off?  Or better still run an ad at PDB stating what a super pedigree she has, is capable of doing anything and would still be a bargain at twice the price?  Well, speaking only for myself, when a dog comes into my life it's a life-long comittment on my part.  I'm not saying that makes a lot of sense or that everybody should operate like that.  I'm just saying that when a canine hooks up with my posse, it's till death do us part.  I guess that's partially a luxury that comes with being a companion dog guy.

Finally, I hope everything is working out for you and your girl.  Pass it on to your helpers and club members that at least one guy WISHES he was about 100 miles closer to you all.  Believe me, I'd be more than willing to cast my lot in with we your crew.  Like I always say, "Fuck them naysayers, if we can't screw our dogs up but good, who can?"

P3eace

Steve Schuler
Carmen, Oklahoma

P.S.

I do want to give a shout-out to all the contributors to this thread who offered constructive advise.  It has been very educational to me and I am sure others as well.  I really, really, appreciate you all taking the time and making the effort to help somebody out with the training of Helpers, Owners and Dogs alike.  You are a great bunch of Folks!!!

  

It is very difficult to give you an accurate evaluation without seeing your dog first hand, but here it goes anyway... The first thing you said that caught my attention was (And this is by no means a slight to your helper), "She charges onto the field like she is going to tear him up but when the helper freezes up and she is in the bark & hold she seems to lose interest." Just based on what you wrote, it seems that maybe your dog has learned to be reactive vs. active (Meaning she should activate or "turn on" and bring the fight to an inactive or non-animated helper.)

The second thing you mentioned that really caught my eye was that you said that you have been really focusing on your BH, which to me means obedience, obedience, obedience. This might be be why she's checking "where's mommy", when she should be in fight/defense because of all the obedience that she has endured. Not that you have done anything wrong or been heavy handed, but more so as if she does not know what it is to be free on the training field.

Lastly, and again I have never seen you train, but many handlers do not play with their dogs rough enough or build drive enough... They will twirl a ball around, heel 8 paces, and then drop the ball on their dog's head for looking up at them. This IS NOT making drive! Also, they never play rough and really work their own dog's grip. People get caught up in this notion that their dog must always win, BUT NOT if they give you a half ass grip or half ass attempt at lunging for the ball, jute, etc...

I have said this before, but when you encounter a problem in training, always take a few steps back.

Adi wrote,
"The reward for her obedience is a ball or food or praise or all 3. Bitework is not her reward for obedience. Obedience in bitework will come later, whe she is ready."

Pay attention to that, Deb. That's how my bitch came to be so unruly in obedience...my past trainer thought that since she loves the sleeve so much, maybe that would help her obedience. NOT. It just makes her wacky in obedience and bouncing all over the place, because she figures a bite is at the end of the fus.
 

Vom,
Ok, my bad on saying the bite was her reward for good obedience.  What I meant by that was after OB, I put her away and then go get her later to do the bitework.  She used to love it so much it was like a reward "after" OB not as part of it.  I didn't mean to mislead anyone.


Thanks for the pep talk Steve.  We actually have gone back a few steps and have worked Echo with the pillow.  Look for my other thread on here as there is a video (alas a poor video) of our recent training.  My helper is working with me and willing to follow some of the advice I received here as I did share it with him.  My girl does not lack drive...she just got confused so we are helping her to understand what I want from her.  And don't worry about me dumping her if she doesn't make SchH1.  She is my buddy and she is not going anywhere without me.  I'm like you as far as bringing a dog into my life, it's forever.
  

Bark and Hold, thanks.  I have let up on the OB and guess what...she is actually doing better in both the OB and the bitework.  I don't know how the rest of you teach a dog to get out of your way when you turn left but I was told in the past and recently to just use your knee and knock them out of the way and they will learn to turn left.  Well maybe stupid dogs will learn it this way.  Echo pretty much let me know that if I needed that much room she would give it to me so she started going wide when off leash.  This last weekend I used treats to lead her nose to the left as I turned left, then stopped using the treats and Voila!  She was no longer going wide in either direction.  My helper is figuring out now that my dog is a smart girl and a thinking dog who gets bored unless things are hopping!   I hope you find my other thread and see the video of her on the pillow so you can see her drive.  I think she has what it takes, it's just her dumbass handler holding her back.

Thanks again everone!
Deb   

Hey DebiSue,

    I hope you find my comments to be helpful to you. As far as your discovery for your left turn issue, congratulations! It is always best when you find the way yourself.

Incidentally, I did watch your video with Echo... And for the most part it looks like good work, however, I do have a couple of suggestions based on my observations.

First of all, I think your helper feeds her the pillow too much. I understand that you are taking a few steps back, but you should give her more misses. Make her really work for that bite.

Second of all, swinging the pillow around on a leash is always good in the beginning, but your helper should be able to make drive like that with the leash, work his way up to the pillow handles from the leash (all the while doing the side-to-side movement), and then give her a run-by bite. I could be wrong, but I believe this is important because it begins to put helper (bad guy) and prey object together.

Thirdly, I think your helper should again do something similar to what I mentioned, but then run away from her once in awhile, only to creep back and give her a bite (The idea being that she is strong and chased this guy off with her voice.)

Fourthly, from what I have seen, you have the type of dog (and she is a female) that when that sleeve or pillow is not in her mouth, there MUST be action, action, action!!!

Fifthly, I would also have your dog occasionally run and pursue the helper to make a bite (only if she is barking first), because it becomes stifling and boring to always make a bite tied out.

And lastly, I would see if you can advance her to be swung around, off the ground by your helper... This really helps build the grip, and it is fun for the dogs.

Thank you Bark and Hold. 
We have progressed to more hands on pillow rather than leash and the helper can really make her mad by making her miss.  We're going to take our time and work on getting her to see him as the bad guy.  He doesn't pet her or fuss over her like he used to.  Only contact is on the field and during training.  Baby steps at this time.  He can't read my dog like he can others.  She out thinks him sometimes and it astounds him from time to time.  She calculates his actions and often cuts him off and nabs that pillow when he isn't expecting it.  You should try to play soccer with her.  She's a hell of a goalie! 
Thanks for your comments and suggestions.  We have had loads of good advice and we are trying different things on her to see what works and what doesn't. 

Take what you find useful, discard the rest, and best of luck with your dog!