OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 2

As a puppy, my dog loved all the rag work, biting pillow and tugs, never had trouble lighting up and barked nonstop.  But then as it progressed to the sleeve and trying to learn the actual exercise, he lost interest.  He would look at the helper dancing around and just roll his eyes like "how dumb are you?"  Turns out my dog works better in defense, at least at this age.  He likes a real threat and relishes a real fight.  Luckily he did enough foundation to know that biting the sleeve is what diffuses the threat so he does strike good, bite full, and will hold and carry a sleeve, but he's a gnarly boy for sure!  My helper cannot slip the sleeve if I'm not right there on the line b/c the dog instantly spits it and goes for him.  He is not object/sleeve oriented, not like dogs who want to run away with the sleeve and rip at it.  He will carry for a little "victory lap" but go right back at the helper, spitting the sleeve on the way.  For a few months his bitework was pretty horrible.  Once he was more mature in the head, we changed how he was worked and he has made good progress every session since then.  Maybe she needs more of a fight now that she is maturing?  Does the helper do any agitation with her or is she worked mainly in prey? 

This is the first excellent thread I have read in the last few weeks.. thanks for posting Deb. I read it three times already. THIS is why I come to this website :-)
Stacy

maybe she is equipment oriented.

I think she just likes the chasing and such,  but doesn't consider the helper as a bad guy. its a game. might as well be playing fetch with her.


all prey, no defense maybe.

Change venues for a while, then go back to your bite work.  Let her rest off of it for a while, something has changed her mind and have you worked with a GSD that does not want to do something or has a bee up it's you know what?  Believe me it is worth letting the hen sit for a while if you know what I mean;  you can try to figure out what is up forever, and probably will not figure it out and in the meantime the dog will be disliking it more and more.  I say move on to something else and she will come back to it strong.  Hopefully.  Good Luck  Nan

 

DebiSue,
You wrote:

 Now she did show signs of a pinched nerve two weeks ago after resting for a couple of hours after training (got up using just her front end, knuckled under on her back feet for a couple of steps) so we gave her a full week of rest and since the signs disappeared in one day I thought she was ok but maybe not. Maybe I should have a full set of X-rays done on her spine and neck. We did have the helper hide and jump out at her the same day she showed signs of lameness (prior to) and she reacted with a fierce bark then tried to get away instead of attacking. As soon as she realized who it was, again ignored the sleeve went to sniffing around, threat gone etc.

I think there are several issues here.  The reaction to the helper in your statement above has a couple of problems for me.  Perhaps, I am not understanding the whole situation as explained.  First, the backing up and trying to get away is an issue after a fierce bark and being startled.  I'm not sure what the circumstances were that the "helper hid and jumped out at her."  Her reaction is very telling.  Ignoring the sleeve afterwords and sniffing the ground is classic avoidance. 

Based on your earlier post, I would say that you are progressing too fast with the obedience and bite work.  Based on your last post there are other issues for me as well.  If this were my dog, I would put the BH on hold.  There is no rush to get a BH.  I would go back to the fundamentals and focus on the bite work.  Like a house' a dog needs a strong foundation, if you rush the foundation  or skimp in parts the house will be unsteady.  So will your dog down the road.  I would take several steps back in the bite work and only work on motivational OB.  To me the issues in the bite work are paramount to the BH.  You can always do the BH, it's not a big deal.  A BH is a relatively easy obedience routine and can be taught to a dog in a few weeks.   I also would not have her out watching other dogs getting all excited and gassed out before bite work. 

You have some problems in the hold and bark already and the escape and long bites.  A good well trained dog will not look at the handler in the hold and bark.  This is a pet a peeve of mine.  A good well  trained dog will never leave the decoy and return to the handler on the long bite.  This shows me some handler / dog conflict and issues in the bite work. 

If it were my dog I would rule out all health issues, I'd probably do the x rays.  Then I would go back to the basics.  if I were your decoy I'd probably go back to a bite wedge or pillow.  I would work in prey build the bite then gradually add defense in.  I would do this on the bite pillow or wedge till the dog targeted well and bit well.  Then I would progress to a soft sleeve than a trial sleeve.  I would take my time as your dog is young and build a strong foundation.  You have a lot of work to do to fix your dog.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Here is the reason I rarely post any more.  Please be wary of some of the psoters that have little actual experience working dogs.  I noticed after I posted some that there were new posts and added this statement.   This has nothing to do with equipment fixation. 

Great thread!  Good to see you back Jim.

Good answer, Liesjer. Turned out that my girl too has a natural tendency towards defense drive. I had the biggest problems with her carrying a sleeve, and as of today she will carry it only at times back to the car. And she too spit it out as soon as he slipped the sleeve. To her the helper is more interesting and she likes the fight, but it too has to be just right (not too overwhelming). She is very clear in the head and is thinking way too much for her own good. She is now 2 1/2 years old.

Tess and Deb, one day I got so tired of the struggle that I had my helper step behind a blind and go insight and out of sight while making alot of threatning noises (zizzling, stick against leather pants ect) and postures. I had my girl on the long line, and as soon as she was barking firiously the helper duck and went out of sight. For the first two sessions she didnt get a bite, I just put her away frustrated (payback...lol) This helped a whole lot and she was more willing to engage.

Later we put her behind the fence to teach the hold and bark. Helper poses a threat and comes closer. My job was to keep her pumped up and barking. Then we were slowly moving to the site of the fence until she was practical in hold/bark position. After quite a few sessions of this we moved on to the revier into the blind. All the fence work also boosted her confidence. We also found that she is doing better with a softer shuut sleeve then with a regular trial sleeve. This was last summer.

Now we are working on the driving with stick hits. Again her defense drive and too much of thinking became appearant. Some sessions she goes for the ride and takes a good hit, other sessions she will let go of the sleeve and duck as soon as the helper lifts his arm. Still trying to kind of figure that one out. For now we keep it very short, I pump her up, I yell across the field what good girl she is, and will put her up right away if she had a good "drive". I hope you have a great helper on your hands to work with. Oh, and I stopped protection work 2 weeks before the BH and put more pressure onto fine tuning the obedience. Started the protection back afterwards and left the obedience part completely out for a while.

Here are a few pics that kinda show the work around the blind from last summer.


Here are a few from this March. One with good drive taking a hit, the other where she ducks away.


And its not that she doesnt have the courage or drive. Coming into the blind, hold and bark.

Here she is almost two weeks ago.  The helper tried disquising himself with a hockey mask and used a trashcan lid instead of a whip.  We also did this off field and even used her truck to see if she would defend it.  It looks better than it was.









You look different but I smell you buddy!



You're not fooling me!  Total refusal to bite.  Checked him out, knew who he was and basically said I'm done.  We left here and went into an area that has a thicket full of small trees and undergrowth with a path thru it.  Echo had never been there and I could tell she was tracking Lawrence.  She was completely startled and after a brief stand and a bark that came from down deep in her toes she turned and headed back for her truck.  If I hadn't had her on leash she might still be going but I pulled her back around and she then recognized him but refused to engage.  Just started sniffing around on the ground.  We called it a day then.