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by Slamdunc on 13 May 2010 - 02:05
DebiSue,
what is your helper thinking? And why is he putting your dog in these situations? I would recommend a new helper that can read dogs better. To end on a situation where she sniffed the ground was a mistake. I would have gotten her to bite and ended on a high note, not with the dog in complete avoidance. I would never have done these things with your dog to start, I do not need a hockey mask and garbage can lid to be intimidating to a dog.
What did your dog learn from this? I think she learned that if a strange decoy comes out and does something different running to the car is ok. This is not the message a good decoy ever sends to a dog, unless he wants to run the dog off the field. Most decoys know that a lot of sport dogs can be shut down, but the really good decoys never do this.
I would recommend evaluating your training and decoy and what your goals are with this dog. I would never do these things with my female at that age and she is a very strong confident dog. MY male would have simply bit your decoy in the chest and taught him a lesson.
How long have you worked your dog on this decoy? Did he do the foundation work?
Jim
what is your helper thinking? And why is he putting your dog in these situations? I would recommend a new helper that can read dogs better. To end on a situation where she sniffed the ground was a mistake. I would have gotten her to bite and ended on a high note, not with the dog in complete avoidance. I would never have done these things with your dog to start, I do not need a hockey mask and garbage can lid to be intimidating to a dog.
What did your dog learn from this? I think she learned that if a strange decoy comes out and does something different running to the car is ok. This is not the message a good decoy ever sends to a dog, unless he wants to run the dog off the field. Most decoys know that a lot of sport dogs can be shut down, but the really good decoys never do this.
I would recommend evaluating your training and decoy and what your goals are with this dog. I would never do these things with my female at that age and she is a very strong confident dog. MY male would have simply bit your decoy in the chest and taught him a lesson.
How long have you worked your dog on this decoy? Did he do the foundation work?
Jim
by DebiSue on 13 May 2010 - 02:05
Uber land,
You may have something there as this is one big game to Echo...Lawrence is her favorite chew toy...or was. He came late one day and I was sitting with my back to the parking area when he came up. Echo spotted him right away. The wind was behind her and he noticed her watching him so he started bobbing and weaving thru the cars and playing peek a boo etc. and she went on full alert, deep warning bark, put her front feet up on a low bench and challenged him. As soon as he got close enough for her to recognize him she was all over him to get her pats and loving but she was impressive for a moment. Our attempt to get her to go on the defense backfired on us. Maybe if the helper had run away instead of presenting the sleeve...hard to say. I feel like I need to get her confidence back up. There was only one time Echo ever defended her pickup when she didn't recognize another club member which was a surprise. She normally is happy to see anyone, never has been territorial.
We use a regular trial (jute) sleeve. Maybe we should try an intermediate sleeve instead. She really does not care for jute. Now if it was covered with leather I think she would love it. Her favorite thing is the leather piece on a flirt pole. She goes ape if she sees another dog getting to play with "her" toy. We have to leave it off the field if we want her to concentrate on sleeve work. I know it is not equipment fixation with the sleeve (but most definately with the flirt pole so it has to go). We have a dog in the club who is sleeve happy so I know what to look for. Echo will let go of the sleeve and go for the whip/stick if it comes too close to her head but doesn't seem to mind a stick hit or two. She has never ducked a hit. She just bites poorly and whines in frustration while on the sleeve when she doesn't want to play anymore.
I'm going to share all comments with my trainer and see if he agrees with me on which way to go. I think maybe she should take a break from it all and then maybe do some confidence building and drop back down to a pillow for target practice. Thank you all for your comments. I will let you know how it works out.
Much obliged!
Deb
You may have something there as this is one big game to Echo...Lawrence is her favorite chew toy...or was. He came late one day and I was sitting with my back to the parking area when he came up. Echo spotted him right away. The wind was behind her and he noticed her watching him so he started bobbing and weaving thru the cars and playing peek a boo etc. and she went on full alert, deep warning bark, put her front feet up on a low bench and challenged him. As soon as he got close enough for her to recognize him she was all over him to get her pats and loving but she was impressive for a moment. Our attempt to get her to go on the defense backfired on us. Maybe if the helper had run away instead of presenting the sleeve...hard to say. I feel like I need to get her confidence back up. There was only one time Echo ever defended her pickup when she didn't recognize another club member which was a surprise. She normally is happy to see anyone, never has been territorial.
We use a regular trial (jute) sleeve. Maybe we should try an intermediate sleeve instead. She really does not care for jute. Now if it was covered with leather I think she would love it. Her favorite thing is the leather piece on a flirt pole. She goes ape if she sees another dog getting to play with "her" toy. We have to leave it off the field if we want her to concentrate on sleeve work. I know it is not equipment fixation with the sleeve (but most definately with the flirt pole so it has to go). We have a dog in the club who is sleeve happy so I know what to look for. Echo will let go of the sleeve and go for the whip/stick if it comes too close to her head but doesn't seem to mind a stick hit or two. She has never ducked a hit. She just bites poorly and whines in frustration while on the sleeve when she doesn't want to play anymore.
I'm going to share all comments with my trainer and see if he agrees with me on which way to go. I think maybe she should take a break from it all and then maybe do some confidence building and drop back down to a pillow for target practice. Thank you all for your comments. I will let you know how it works out.
Much obliged!
Deb
by Liesjers on 13 May 2010 - 02:05
I am confused by what is going on in the pictures, so I can only imagine how confused a young dog might be. It sounds like the dog is giving off several different calming/avoidance signals.
As to the leather flirt pole thing, I went through the same thing with my dog. Do yourself a favor and cut it to pieces! I had the same problem, if my dog knew that toy was anywhere nearby he would not work for anything but that toy and that included protection. This was when he was still young (6 months), before he had a good helper to build the foundation and slowly build his confidence.
As to the leather flirt pole thing, I went through the same thing with my dog. Do yourself a favor and cut it to pieces! I had the same problem, if my dog knew that toy was anywhere nearby he would not work for anything but that toy and that included protection. This was when he was still young (6 months), before he had a good helper to build the foundation and slowly build his confidence.
by Slamdunc on 13 May 2010 - 02:05
never mind
by DebiSue on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
Jim,
The helper is our training director and he is the one who did her foundation work. He managed to put a SchH III on his very soft female just last fall. He is as puzzled as I am as to Echo's sudden change in temperament. His thoughts on what he did was trying to get her out of the "hey it's a game" mode and into "protection from a threat" mode. Neither of us expected her to cut and run as she has never shown any sign of fear. I agree that we quit at the wrong time but what is done is done. Now I have to move forward and I know my helper will work with my suggestions. Speaking of fearless..we are having one heck of a thunderstorm right now and she is laid out at my feet, sound asleep. Strangers are just friends she hasn't met. I always worried she would lick the helper instead of biting him but she used to go at it with gusto. Last October at our trial, the helper we had for the trial put her on the sleeve and our training director was astounded because he didn't think she was ready (age then was 13mo). Her first experience with it was to bite (a total stranger) let go, sniff the sleeve then re-engage. No problem. Never looked back until just recently. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it was her being in heat and nothing more.
Always grateful for your input.
Deb
The helper is our training director and he is the one who did her foundation work. He managed to put a SchH III on his very soft female just last fall. He is as puzzled as I am as to Echo's sudden change in temperament. His thoughts on what he did was trying to get her out of the "hey it's a game" mode and into "protection from a threat" mode. Neither of us expected her to cut and run as she has never shown any sign of fear. I agree that we quit at the wrong time but what is done is done. Now I have to move forward and I know my helper will work with my suggestions. Speaking of fearless..we are having one heck of a thunderstorm right now and she is laid out at my feet, sound asleep. Strangers are just friends she hasn't met. I always worried she would lick the helper instead of biting him but she used to go at it with gusto. Last October at our trial, the helper we had for the trial put her on the sleeve and our training director was astounded because he didn't think she was ready (age then was 13mo). Her first experience with it was to bite (a total stranger) let go, sniff the sleeve then re-engage. No problem. Never looked back until just recently. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it was her being in heat and nothing more.
Always grateful for your input.
Deb
by poseidon on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
Jim stresses some really serious training issues with your helper and your dog that should not be taken lightly.
In one of your photos where your dog is barking in a siting position, your helper should not be staring down at your dog. It is intimidating for a learning dog. Think confidence building. The helper should be looking away with minimum eye contact and reward her strongest bark with the sleeve moving backwards. The helper should not be seen as controlling to your dog but someone your dog can empower.
Adding to this, you should not allow your dog to be friendly and playing with the helper. Your helper should have known better.
In one of your photos where your dog is barking in a siting position, your helper should not be staring down at your dog. It is intimidating for a learning dog. Think confidence building. The helper should be looking away with minimum eye contact and reward her strongest bark with the sleeve moving backwards. The helper should not be seen as controlling to your dog but someone your dog can empower.
Adding to this, you should not allow your dog to be friendly and playing with the helper. Your helper should have known better.
by Slamdunc on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
DebiSue,
You wrote:
Last October at our trial, the helper we had for the trial put her on the sleeve and our training director was astounded because he didn't think she was ready (age then was 13mo). Her first experience with it was to bite (a total stranger) let go, sniff the sleeve then re-engage. No problem.
Actually, letting go of the sleeve and sniffing it is a problem, re engaging is a good sign, but still a problem. Whether you decoy works your dog in prey or defense the dog should never let go. In prey a dog never lets go of it's rabbit once it caught it, if it has life. In defense a dog wants to fight and won't let go of it's adversary until it is confident it has won the fight or commanded to out.
A dog can be worked in prey for SchH. But a highly prey driven dog will not let go of the sleeve because a strange decoy is holding it. I hope I'm not being too blunt or harsh, it is not my intention. I think your dog has some confidence issues and they may arise from your decoy. I got the impression from your other post that your decoy or TD is at a loss and looking for new things to do with your dog to solve these problems. So far what he is doing is not working and I would stop the crazy bitework scenarios.
From the little information provided and the photos, I do not know the experience level of your training director. Just go back to the basics and have him not be so friendly to your dog. When it's time for protection it's time to work and not socialize. I wouldn't let him socialize with the dog any longer.
Jim
You wrote:
Last October at our trial, the helper we had for the trial put her on the sleeve and our training director was astounded because he didn't think she was ready (age then was 13mo). Her first experience with it was to bite (a total stranger) let go, sniff the sleeve then re-engage. No problem.
Actually, letting go of the sleeve and sniffing it is a problem, re engaging is a good sign, but still a problem. Whether you decoy works your dog in prey or defense the dog should never let go. In prey a dog never lets go of it's rabbit once it caught it, if it has life. In defense a dog wants to fight and won't let go of it's adversary until it is confident it has won the fight or commanded to out.
A dog can be worked in prey for SchH. But a highly prey driven dog will not let go of the sleeve because a strange decoy is holding it. I hope I'm not being too blunt or harsh, it is not my intention. I think your dog has some confidence issues and they may arise from your decoy. I got the impression from your other post that your decoy or TD is at a loss and looking for new things to do with your dog to solve these problems. So far what he is doing is not working and I would stop the crazy bitework scenarios.
From the little information provided and the photos, I do not know the experience level of your training director. Just go back to the basics and have him not be so friendly to your dog. When it's time for protection it's time to work and not socialize. I wouldn't let him socialize with the dog any longer.
Jim
by DebiSue on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
Ahhhh! Good points poseidon! Normally he doesn't make eye contact with her but turns his head. He is extremely tall so he will be intimidating regardless of when he stoops and crabwalks. I'm thinking you are right about not letting her play with him. When she bit the helper at the trial, she had not met him. It could be she is too familiar with her helper.
And no, I would never take anything Jim says lightly. I value his input. I'm going to print this off and have my helper read it and "digest" it all and go from there.
Deb
And no, I would never take anything Jim says lightly. I value his input. I'm going to print this off and have my helper read it and "digest" it all and go from there.
Deb
by DebiSue on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
No Jim,
You are not being too harsh or blunt...I'm known for being blunt myself and I'm pretty thick skinned. I asked for help with our problem and I'm getting loads of opionions most of which seem to agree with yours. I appreciate your comments and trust you and your advice. It makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
Deb
You are not being too harsh or blunt...I'm known for being blunt myself and I'm pretty thick skinned. I asked for help with our problem and I'm getting loads of opionions most of which seem to agree with yours. I appreciate your comments and trust you and your advice. It makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
Deb
by Slamdunc on 13 May 2010 - 03:05
Poseidon,
Very good post and you are spot on. I was going to comment on the hold and bark photo with the decoy leaning over the dog as well. It is inappropriate with this dog.
Jim
Very good post and you are spot on. I was going to comment on the hold and bark photo with the decoy leaning over the dog as well. It is inappropriate with this dog.
Jim
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