OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 4

 Debi,

I concur with what Jim is telling you, on all points, including you are going to fast in the protection work, how the dog is being worked, about the helper not "playing" or socializing with the dog, and the issue of confidence in the dog. I will also second the intimation in his post and that of Poseidon about the issues not being addressed correctly and that these problems can haunt you and the dog for a long time, or forever if one is not very careful. I have seen it.

The height of a helper has nothing to do with his/her presence as concerns the dog and the issue of whether or not the helper can be intimidating. In a young dog, this is absolutely not the goal ever, in any case. As pointed out, the goal is to help teach the dog that the dog can win, can overpower the helper, and make the dog confident. Once a dog has an experience where it drops a sleeve and sniffs it, or runs to the car, there is big trouble ahead. It is amazing how such behaviors will end up being a recurrent behavior. So it is imperative to not let such things happen again and to do that, one has to be working the dog correctly. Staring down a young dog is, as already stated, not appropriate.

Now, all this being said, it is always difficult to present such scenarios as have you and have others comment, and then have the OP take these comments back to the helper. All too often the helper sees this, rightly or wrongly, as criticism and it causes trouble. So I would NOT simply copy these posts and take them back to your helper. My suggestion to you is to find another person to work with your dog for a time once you start working it again. For example, you are not too far away from my state and there are a number of good helpers here. There might be others in your state to your east. Talk to them first and tell them where you are in training (as you see it), about your experience to date,  what has happened recently and just see how they work the dog. Such a situation with a competent helper would be all about the dog gaining confidence and it might even be nothing more than tug work or puppy sleeve work, depending.

Gaining experience with a variety of helpers can be useful for you because it gives you a better understanding of all the options available to work a given dog, and as you learn, you realize that some types of work are not appropriate for certain dogs (or any dog in some cases). I have some good examples of incorrect work I can share, but I would prefer to do that privately so I can make sure you understand all the issues and ramifications without confusion or disagreement popping up here.

The other issue you mention is the possibility of injury to the dog. I cannot be sure whether your dog may or may not be injured, but dogs can be quite stoic and injuries missed. It is not worth the risk of further injury and a dog often will not be able to work properly if it is injured. So as others have suggested, I would strongly suggest not doing any protection work for maybe even a month or so, and just do some obedience and you work with the dog on confidence and making work fun. Even if the dog is NOT injured, putting her up for a while until YOU get things sorted out in your mind about how to proceed may be wise.

Once you do go back to protection work, I would bet you that if you were here, we would be backing way up with your dog because some important lessons seem like they have not been learned by the dog. Not all dogs are the same, even if they are from working lines and one expects them able to do good work in the end. Failing to recognize this and pushing dogs too far too fast more often than not just leads to frustration for you, and worse, failure for the dog.

Another strong suggestion is that you take your dog to a working seminar with Bernhard Flinks if at all possible. He can show you a lot. He is very good at w

The helper in all those pix is working the dog in defense, challenging the dog. Obviously the dog is not ready for it. I would probably slap him for it, but that's just me. After you get a complete work up done, and discover if there are any hidden physical issues or not, either instruct your helper to return to prey work, (ie: stop challenging the dog with moves and POSTURE) or find another helper who will take a few steps back and build the dog back up in prey. Also, stop any formal obedience work involving hard corrections until the dog recovers and becomes strong in the protection work again. Tracking for food/toys, all positive reinforcement, is fine.
I can't tell you how many dogs I see ruined by confrontational helper work too soon in the dog's career, especialy females.
I tnever fails to piss me off.

Just my not-so-humble opinion...
S

Who IS that masked man with the trashcan lid in his hand anyway?
I'm thinking its NOT Helmut Raiser.
That photo belongs in the Official Schutzund Training Hall of Fame, in the I R a Master Dawg Trayner exhibit. I'm copying it to my I-phone so I can share it with a few close friends in the sport next time things get slow on a hot day.

RUN Debi Sue RUN!

Pack your girl in the car, take her to see Dean in Columbus for evaluation (and damage control). Never return to that  "training director" again. If it weren't so tragic for you and your dog, that photo would be hilarious.

How's that for blunt?

S

Ouch!  Now that exceeds blunt and crosses over into down right mean girl friend!  LOL  Too be fair, the trainer does not always approach her as he is seen in these pictures.  He often comes up sideways, eyes averted and tries other methods when he is stumped with a dog's behavior.  He is a nice man, loves the GSD with a passion and tries to do right.  He doesn't really exhibit much ego.  Because he hasn't been doing this but about 6 years, I think he has a lot to learn as do I as this is my first attempt at Schutzhund.

Believe it or not, Wichita being the largest city in the state of Kansas has but one Schutzhund Club.  There are a couple of other trainers in my area, one of which is certified through UScA.  Not sure he has certified with WDA or not.  Very different method and on occassion he will visit and train with us.  I will contact him and ask him if he can't come more frequently.  We are having Russ Osburn from Pittsburg up for a helper seminar and mock BH to help us with our dogs.  I would love to train with him on a regular basis but I am not where I can afford to drive all over the state in search of trainers.   

We trained for about 15 minutes tonight.  I approached our trainer with my concerns and a few of the suggestions I have received and he was very open.  He had no problem going back to the pillow and Echo was on fire again!  We tried the whip to see if it intimidated her...it did not.  She kept her ears up and focused on biting that pillow.  She literally pulled me off of my feet several times and as you can see in the pictures I posted, that's a bit of a load to dislodge!  It's been a while since she has been that enthusiastic and it caught me off guard.  The trainer played tug of war with her letting her drag him back towards me before he released the pillow.  We've given her a taste of something she likes and now I'm going to leave her at home for a couple of weeks to see if it helps build drive...although I dunno if I can take much more than what she exhibited tonight.  We have an appointment to have her x-rayed to check her neck and spine just to be sure everything there is good.  She certainly acted like she felt ok while training and I haven't seen her move strangely since we've been home.  We will take it slow and easy and see how she advances and I will keep you all posted.  I think she will succeed in spite of her handler.

Thanks again to all who have given me loads to think about.
Deb

Sounds like a prime example of "a little knowledge is dangerous".  I can't even begin to tell you how wrong this is.

Not going to comment on the pics.......

I don't know the trainer or training methods, but people often times make way too many excuses for a dog.

There is a big difference between drive and courage.

GARD - I like your statement regarding the difference between drive & courage but could you go into a little more detail because I'm not really knowledgable enough to fully understand it !!

Is courage only something that can be gauged when the dog is in a stressful situation and does it only work within the limits of the dogs drives?

Thanks,

AandA

Hi Deb,

It is difficult to have access to good training helpers and those who have are so lucky.  You just have to make the best out of the situation at the club with help from visiting helpers and seminars.  I would rather have an inexperience helper open to learning then one who thinks he knows it all but getting it all wrong.

The temperament of each individual dog is different and a good helper will adjust his training to bring the best out of the dog as oppose to ruining or squashing every element of its drives.

Good luck.