OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 9

Deb ,I'm not really sure myself what sort of tests and certifications helpers take.  I've recently learned that a trial helper (which is typically what is meant when someone says they are "certified" by X-organization) is very different from a teaching helper.  I think both require great skill, but a great trial helper may not necessarilly have the same talent as a teaching helper and vice versa (though it seems there *are* many helpers who are adept at both, but I'm guessing they would agree that each require their own set of skills and experience).  I'm not trying to criticize your helper because like I said, I don't really know what is involved as far as being certified for either trial or teaching, but I do think the differents is important.  If someone says to me that they have done trials on a national or international level, that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'd be joining their club and letting them work my dogs.

As for upcoming helpers working young/green dogs....personally I make decisions based on my gut, which can only be made by actually watching someone work dogs.  I would not necessarily bar an inexperienced helper from working my dog.  I certainly would not let them experiment on my dog (they would have to know what to do, or be under the guidance of a good helper, and explain why we are doing what we are doing and how it's going to help), but I won't just write off any trainer (of any sort, not just SchH helpers) simply based on what certifications they do or don't have.  This is just how I feel, not as someone who is a helper but someone far less experienced having had to go through settling on a club and a helper with a young dog.

Yoshi
Yes,i read your post well enough, I am not talking at all about a green Helper learning fast or slow
I am talking only of putting a young green dog who has done little in the way of Protection with a Helper who does not know and is green himself, That is no way for a Pup to learn or anything else if a novice helper thinks it is just a matter of putting on a sleeve then they or he is gravely mistaken I am too old for it but have seen Dozens of different Helpers working, some top some were not so good but qualified and experienced no one is the same in anything But to put a promising young dog with a Novice Helper when nether know little is to me plain stupid
And although i may be stupid in many things of that i am not. But as i said if that green Helper has an experienced Handler to show him what is what then Yes, i would allow it and a green novice handler needs the guidance of a old hand only then can he know if he is making mistakes

However this is Debs Thread and her dog in question, All, i can say is Deb your Pup is going on okay and all they all need is time
Steve1

Yoshy, you're right I did misread your post.  You said "........I would have to agree and yet to be upset if someone....." which I misread as " ....yet be upset........."
Sorry!!!!!

Its all good. sueincc


steve i was agreeing with you. you just came back a bit condesending.

the 2 main points i was trying to convey were 1) you must have confidence in your helper.
                                                                                  2)dont discredit a green helper if under the tutilage of a senior helper.

So if im not mistaken the thats the same thing you were saying right?

 

Yoschy
The way i write is the way it is, We have been through all this several times now about people from different countries and the way they Phase words or sentences, and i have no need to apologize nor will i for something you read into wrongly
To put it in plain speaking English if i am going to condescending to anyone then i will say i am and that is not meant in a nasty way just the truth, I do not bother about peoples feelings i write what i think and thats it no different from you or any other guy here,
 As it has been said before we all have out own way of writing and it does not mean I or anyone else is being funny and patronizing or condescending, where you read into that i do not know in my posts
I will never agree with anyone if i think they are wrong no more than they will with me
But one thing i pick up on is this, some of you Guys living in the USA seem to be a little soft  maybe that is not the right word meaning that words taken in the wrong context seem to upset some of you Guys, How can they upset you they are words only, I say this because it keeps cropping up in different threads Puppet mentions it and it has been said many times
Again perhaps i am reading it wrongly and you Guys do not mean it the way i read into it, It is all in the way we think and speak although we all speak the English language every country has its own way of expressing words different
You  can call me all the names you want if you feel fit too they will not have any effect at all, I might say to myself yes he is a right Twerp if there was one but other than that it is not hurting me
However to get back to the thread,  I have not long been back from the training Club and It was an Older Helper who took Izzy on Protection this morning, He supervised a  young Guy but he had done a fair bit before my turn so he did not take Izzy on, But as the Older Helper was there if he had said okay then i would have given him the chance
Izzy is still only in the early stages of the Bite with a Sleeve, We had near on half her life age out with her teething and then no transport for 3 or more Months so nothing was done with her So i will no take any chances at this stage unless the Guy is supervised then i would, Later on he will have plenty of chances with young dogs and there are a few in the club right now
Steve1

Steve,
I never asked for an apology- and never will. I was agreeing with what you were saying an now you come back once again with a dimeaning comment about the US. im not going to get into a pissing match here as there is no point.  i dont take offense easily however i do exspect a bit of respect amongst peers. to be condesending to one another is much different than simply disagreeing or hosting an intelligent debate.

I simply cant help but laugh at you classifying americans as "soft". wow. i just hope that all europeans hold us in such high regard. I had come to expect more from man as educated as you seem to be and im not being facetious in the least. I have traveled most of the world with the exception of europe and to date have never had any make the claim/generalization of soft. IT amazes me that persons from an european nation could bestow a word such as soft upon our nation especially since everytime a nation in europe is in trouble they ask for our help. Being a veteran I know of this first hand.

Words are powerful tools. words have cuased some of the most devasting wars/conflict known to man as well as words convey the intentions and feeling from person to person. to say words mean nothing is simply ignorant. speaking respectfully and intelligently is a trait to be admired and anything less demotes a person in my book.I would expect a man of your stature,experience, and expertise to realise this and exihibit some leadership traits that would include providing advice and debates in a respectful tone.

I will not be returning to this thread so any reply would be for your own benifit only.


OP,
I apologize for our despute and i hope you retrieve the info you require to help progress your dog in the facet you require.

Tsk Tsk boys!  And I say boys because you both are acting a bit childish.  I would think if anyone would be upset over things said on this thread it would be me.  Guess I'm the thick skinned one of the whole bunch.  Go back and look at the pics I posted.  I'm not fat...I'm just thick skinned.  I gained all that callousing by asking questions on this site.  I only weigh 98 pounds soaking wet!  LOL  Lighten up.  There is so much misery in the world, why get your hackles up over an assumption of what someone else meant?  I mean really!  Think about it.  Steve I know you have been around long enough to know better but are at that age where you don't feel you need to put up with crap anymore.  Yoshy, you are young and have a lot to learn.  Steve is a veteran also.  You both should respect the other for this alone if you have nothing else in common besides dogs.  Ok lecture over.  I love you both.
Deb

Yoshy
Why are you getting on your high horse , that is what i have been saying Words or Sentences taken the wrong way
I used the word soft and i said for finding a more suitable word that is the way some of us Englishmen put things there is no nasty meaning to it yet you are making a big deal out of it
In my post there was not one word out of place to put you down or the people of your country, It is a way of expression and i said so,  but you take it as meant in a different light I told you that if i mean something then i will say it out right no bloody hidden meanings
  Guvnor i do not give a shit, and whist we are at it you have not yet lived long enough or seen enough at your age to even get your bloody Nappy Changed yet, So do not come the Old Soldier with me it does not work
and that Yoshy is meant in a sarcastic way,so take it as you will i do not bother what you think
But remember this for the future if i think i am being sarcastic to anyone i will tell them i am, for even if a person is not then it is still taken as such, That is what i have been saying now for sometime
some of you Guys have your feelings hurt by so little it takes some understanding by me how it can happen
Deb
Sorry to intervene in your thread, I was perfectly in a nice frame of mind before i read the last post of Yoshy, but his lack of reading what is put into print or not believing what he has read did annoy me a little as to the reply to him above, I will not let it happen on this thread again
Steve1

My 19mo girl has always, from day one had over the top drive.

Good.

She has always turned on and gone after the helper with little to no encouragement.

Great.

Her prey drive transitioned from the flirt pole to the pillow to the sleeve and she gives a good full bite.

Excellent.


She is not afraid of the helpers, she loves them.

She shouldn't be afraid of he helpers. She shouldn't love them either. Theya re an opponent who should be defeated, every time, all the time.


She sits off field watching other dogs and goes crazy wanting her turn.

Don't do this anymore. She is 19 months old, not 8 r 9, old enough to sit in a van, suv or a car in a crate awaiting her turn. YOu lose soo much energy by discharging it by "going crazy waiting her turn", then she can get tired just by waiting to get in on the action, so discontinue this practice. When, it's your turn, go to your car, get the dog out of the cate and get to the field.


I don't scold her for barking, just the opposite I encourage her to "watch him".

Again, this should have been done and discontinued a long time ago, it doesn't do anything now but exausts her. She knows what to do when her time comes fine right out of the crate, no need for fence barking while the other dog is working.


She charges onto the field like she is going to tear him up but when the helper freezes up and she is in the bark & hold she seems to lose interest.

This dog should be worked only in prey for a while. When the helper freezes up is not prey. He needs to do a lot of zigzaging ovements, laterally, left and right, back abd forth, act a lot and ake her miss a few times while doing a fly by. THen, allow a bite.


I think she is confused but I don't understand why the sudden lack of interest in biting the sleeve.

Go back to prey work.

She looks back to me as if to say "What is he doing?"

She is confused, yes, he is not doing it right appropriate for her level. Forget bark and hold, go back to prey basics, bark and hold is different.


She will continue the bark & hold, very nicely but by the time he presents the sleeve she bites it half heartedly.

She is going into mild avoidance. Again, he needs to really "work her". Young dogs are tough on helpers, as helpers really need to break a sweat with them and do a lot of sudden movements and fly bys to get them going.

She runs down the escape well but doesn't always "latch on". Her courage test is pretty much the same.

she is not ready for courage test, you are rushing it. What helper needs to do and you too, fire her up from a distance. When she is about to burst, let her go. WHat he SHOULD NOT DO is do a courage test the way you and he think it should be done. He should charge her, yes, but only intitialy. When she is halfway through, he should actualy RUN AWAY FROM HEr and when she catches, give a bite. Slip the sleeve immediately.

She charges him like a rocket but often just bites "at " the sleeve.


Read above, you are rushing and not doing it right.

It isn't everytime. Some bites are awesome and he can swing her off the ground


Don't swing her off the ground, she isn't ready for that stuff yet. SLIP THE SLEEVE.

but others are frontal or weak and at times she just leaves the helper and comes back to me.

Withouth the bite? Don't do that ever again. The dog has to win. Do the run away from her as described above.

I've checked her teeth and find no problem there so I've rulled out pain.

It's not the teetch a

It's not the teeth and the pain, it's the grey matter in her head, maturity, nerves, temperament and the training that is not tailored for her at this stage.

I feel like we are taking our time,

No, you are not.

never have rushed her into anything.

Yes, you are rushing her.

She has always been go go go at whatever you present to her.

Good.

I have been concentrating hard on OB for her BH

Loosen up, don't mix the 2 together, you are rushing BH and bitework, slow down, it's not a race, it's training.


and protection has recently just been like a reward for good OB so we haven't been into overkill but it doesn't seem to excite her like it used to.

No. The reward for her obedience is a ball or food or praise or all 3. Bitework is not her reward for obedience. Obedience in bitework will come later, whe she is ready.

Anyone got any ideas why she is suddenly losing interest?

Yes, I do. You and your helper need to tailor the training to suit her and mould her into what she can be. YOu need to work with him and talk it over before the dog is brought out of the crate.