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by Katz22 on 23 May 2010 - 08:05
What are the thoughts on this? I think they look really nice (I'm a sucker for a wolfy-looking dog!), can't comment on the drive/temprement though.
by GSDtravels on 23 May 2010 - 09:05
by Sunsilver on 23 May 2010 - 12:05
The original Shiloh registry is called the I.S.S.R. There have been numerous splits from that registry, and those not breeding under the breed founder's (Tina Barber) very strict guidlines are making a total mess of the breed.
Tina has been trying hard to set breed type, and build the gene pool up to the point where she can apply for recognition with the AKC. Meanwhile, the other registries are outcrossing their dogs to German Shepherds, or inbreeding on the wrong dogs, and creating dogs that are undersized, have poor structure, and serious temperment and health issues. It's gotten so bad, many people think the Shiloh is nothing but a poorly bred, oversized, long-coated GSD. (The non-ISSR breeders have made over 100 outcrosses to GSDs in the last few decades. So much for THEM trying to set breed type!
) The ISSR's last outcross was Artus, who was introduced around 1997. He recently passed away at the age of 13.When I first got to know about the breed, all the political crap really threw me off, but as I learned more, I realized just how serious the issues were.
The true Shiloh has a straight back, moderate angulation and a mellower, more laid back temperment than a GSD. Tina has tried hard to create a dog that is the ideal family dog. As with any breed, there is a range of temperments, but most Shilohs will protect their homes and families. In most of the instances I've heard about, the Shiloh cornered the person who was trespassing, and would not let them move, until their owner came. Their size and wolfish appearance makes them an excellent visual deterrent.
They are extremely smart, but need a gentle hand in training, as temperments are much softer than a GSD. My puppy has learned numerous things without me even trying to teach her. I did not have to teach her her name, or to come when called.
Here's a post I made about one of my favourite Shilohs. She is an owner-trained service dog, and a litter sister to my puppy's mom:
www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/360366.html
Here is a link to the breed standard: www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandard.htm
If you are looking for a high drive dog to to schutzhund with, you'd be best to look at another breed. Tina did do personal protection work and schutzhund with her dogs in the early days, but later began focusing on producing a softer, more mellow dog better suited to family life.
Until 1990, she bred AKC registered GSDs, under the Shiloh kennel name. When the malemute/GSD outcross was introduced (Secret Sampson-Woo) she split with the AKC, and changed her kennel name to New Zion.
by GSDtravels on 23 May 2010 - 13:05
I just realized I gave you goddess status, Sunsilver, LOL. I name you "most knowledeable regular poster". Congrats! Really, although you do have a wealth of knowledge on various subjects, I meant to say you were the most knowledgeable on this particular subject. 
And see, I was right!
by Sunsilver on 23 May 2010 - 13:05
Well, I KNEW what you meant, GSDtravels, and actually missed that it could have been interpreted the other way! by VKFGSD on 23 May 2010 - 14:05
Ah Sunsilver I see you have finally come out of the closet and admitted to owning a Shiloh. For far too long you have been shilling for these POS dogs that are an abomination and need to get the Shepherd out of their name. AND you need to STOP promoting them on a GSD board.
Katz, Here is something I posted previously in response to Sunsilver's shilling..
Sunsilver, I too do not want to turn this thread into a forum re Shilohs but I feel I must correct some information you posted to wit " Tina bred her Shilohs because of what she saw happening to the American GSD. You've been around long enough to know what happened during the 60's when the German and American dogs went their separate ways, and the American dogs began to develop weak nerves, bad hips and overstreched, overangulated bodies" Please note that this is not mere history for me - I was there and still have the magazines and catalogs and books and memories of the time.
1. Tina was breeding oversized GSDs (often longcoats) long long before any bifurcation of the breed. It had NOTHING to do w/ weak nerves , overangulation etc. There were some damn nice dogs in the 60s and 70s - Take a look at their pictures on the link below. As I said above she needed a schtick to distinguish herself from the rest of the commercial breeders. Her spiel even in those days was that she was breeding the "old fashioned" GSD which even at the time was an outright lie. The standard until 1968 had both height and weight limits ( 45 -65 lbs for a bitch) and the Germans were far stricter than Americans in enforcing height limits.
2. The bifurcation of the breed ( German/American Working/ show ) did not really come about until the very late 70s to the early 80s NOT in the 60s and by 1974 Tina was already positioning herself as a separate breed "Shilohs" tho she continued to register them as AKC GSDs for some time. If you check here http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/GrandVictors.html you can get a flavor for how and when breeding changed. For the decade from 1960 to 1970 there were 10 Grand Victors represented by 9 dogs ( Mike won it 2x). Of these 10 - 5 were German imports, 1 the son of an import and 3 Grandsons of German imports. Look at Lance's pedigree he really has a very German pedigree which is one reason he crossed so well with the Mike stuff which went back to the old American lines from the 30s to the 50s. It is only in the 80s that we start to see the diversion to the more extreme dogs ( hawkeye, hammer, crusader, dakota) but even then there were some decent dogs with fairly close up German crosses.
3. Tina much trumpets her supposed emphasis on hips and her LMX program yet the statistics show that her Shilohs have a higher incidence of CHD and a much lower rate of Xrays than GSDs and if you wander thru the db you find darn few dogs that have LMX info. http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
4. Tina is and has always been a consumate salesperson and creative writer - often I believe in the mode ot the revisionist school of historians to justify current events. The reality is she was ("By the late seventies I had over a hundred dogs in kennel, and produced dozens of litters per year." kennel of origin history) and is a very large commercial producer of animals ( averaging 20 litters a year) who is willing to sell you "Puppies with serious faults, such as: gun shyness, severe under bite, multiple minor faults, or a diagnosed/physical handicap (such as a heart murmur)," for a mere $1000 from http://www.newzionshilohs.org/nzsPolicyPrices.htm . Good gig if you have the stomach for it - I don't and certainly this is not a role model I would recommend to anyone.
see http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/6308.html?pagen=3
by GSDtravels on 23 May 2010 - 14:05
by beast on 23 May 2010 - 14:05
I don't know much about them, but I've met a few. They look kind of like Tervs to me.
Whatever floats your boat I suppose!
by Sunsilver on 23 May 2010 - 15:05
They are a breed which is still 'under development'. They became a separate breed around 1990, when the first true outcross was made, to Secret Samson Woo, a dog that was a mix of Giant malemute and GSD.
Even before that, Tina was keeping careful records of each of her litters, and what each sire produced in terms of temperment, size and genetic faults.
VKF, I know the changes happened mostly in the 70s and 80s but the first nail in the coffin was in 1967 when Lance of Fran-Jo was GV, and Bodo v. Lierberg, who had been German, Dutch AND Belgian Sieger, couldn't manage better than 'Special Select'.
It was mostly downhill from that point on.
As for OFA, Tina's.statistics show a continuing , gradual improvement in the hips of the ISSR Shilohs. Fred Lanting is her mentor when it comes to hips. You know, the guy that wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics? Many Shilohs are penn-hipped rather than having OFA. The statistics on the OFA site mostly represent Shilohs that belong to the 'splinter' registries.
Here's a link to the Shiloh Genetic Task Force, which includes data on dysplasia: www.shilohshepherds.info/geneticTaskForce/library.htm
Here's the article re. dysplasia that's connected to the GTF link. It's one of the best, most complete articles on the subject I've seen! www.shilohshepherds.info/geneticTaskForce/Hip_Dysplasia.htm
How many breeders do YOU know that keep this depth of information on their dogs, and make it availabe to the owners?
The OFA site states 20.4% of Shilohs are dysplastic, and 19.1% of German Shepherds are dysplastic. Is it any wonder the figures are so similar when the breeders who have broken with Tina have made over 100 outcrosses to German Shepherds in the last 20 years?
The figures collected on ISSR Shilohs show a rate of only 11.2 % dysplastic!
by sueincc on 23 May 2010 - 15:05
I agree with GSDtravels in that this is the all breed forum section and so it is in fact the appropriate place for Shiloh threads.
VKFGSD: I used to get my proverbial panties in a twist over what I see as inacuracies in what Tina says about the GSD, until it finally dawned on me that people who want Shilohs are not looking for a GSD or a GSD wannabe. They like the stature, coat, beauty and the softer, more laid back temperament of the Shiloh, among other things. Those who buy her dogs also probably buy into what I consider fairy tales about crap GSDs, but so what, this is exactly what Tina believes and nothing is going to change at this point. To each their own, right? I agree that the Shiloh is not anything like what a GSD is, or ever was supposed to be, but that's really not the issue anymore. They are a separate breed now. I much prefer the road Tina took to those who intentionally breed outside of the GSD standard and still call their dogs GSDs.
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