Czech Bloodlines. - Page 15

Duke I just reacted to this sentence you said  .... all else available is watered down with westbloodlines in them ....
I know a lot of high quality dogs who have these bloodlines.
BTW,by that comprehension skills I didn´t refer to you but to those guys who stated that Hans doesn´t care about hips.
I agree with you that in the past dogs in former Czechoslovakia were bred for other goals.
I hear some older dog people here in Slovakia - breeders,handlers saying that the dogs in the past were better and that there are not good dogs today and I DON´T AGREE.
1.the training methods were much different in the past.
2.I see a lot of great dogs today but a lot of them are sold overseas before they are used for breeding here.Fortunately there are still some wise breeders who keep the best stock for further breeding.Within the last 4-5 years I have been to a lot of breedsurveys and I have seen a lot og high quality dogs especially females which is good.
3.when I see these people who says so training their dogs today and when I see what dogs they have, it just proves me right in my opinion about "how great dogs they had". For them if a dog was agressive then he/she was great. Were his grips just with the front teeth - it didn´t matter,for them since he behaved aggressively he was great. My criteria is much much different - the dog must work in any environment under different kinds of pressure - heights,darkness,slippery floors,water, under gunfire without showing any hesitation.It must have strong nerves and do not behave aggresively unless needed.Those whiners never worked their dogs under such conditions,they don´t do it even nowadays.They don´t know the strenghts and weaknesses of their dogs,they don´t know the dogs they have in pedigree.

Hans,

Am I understanding you correctly that it is your perspective that, in a broad sense, the genetic material to selectively breed towards balanced dogs that express the most desirable attributes of the German Shepherd are present in all of the "types" of German Shepherds currently existing?

For example, if all breeders had to work with were dogs currently classified as German Showline (not to disparage Showline breeders) that the genetic material is still present that would allow breeders, through time, to produce dogs that were in congruence with dogs more to your own ideal?

By the way, thanks for your voicing your optimistic outlook for the future of the GSD.  Your encouragement is much appreciated!

SteveO 

duke, you've often mentioned the disappearing of the czech lines, but what would you propose?  The integrity of the type can be retained with the infusion of new blood.  I would guess that to NOT do so, is similar to 'kennel blindness' on a larger scale, and would likely put czech dogs in the same predicament we see DDR lines in.

Although I am, I know you're not fond of the Nick and Yoschy and Tom v'L. that are frequently employed with the czech lines.  I know that you don't like that these few westline particular dogs are having a major impact in czech breeding.  But that's got to be better than having dozens or even more major west german producers thrown into the melting pot.

If czech breeders feel they need to outcross to build further on what they have, then there's probably good reason for it.  It doesn't seem that they intend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but do you have some good suggestions what to bring in?

Duke my statements were general and in no way ment on you specificaly.
But than you say in nice way that is, this.
Duke you say: Prague , about your breeding's versus your comments
dint take this wrong , its not meant like that , but in your writing posts I see ,in many things , you know what you talk about and how to do it , but I cant find any examples to reflect that philosophy , which I regret

So why don't you show me specificaly where  am I violating my philosophy??? Rather than throwing general innuendos. 
Proof is in the pudding. The results of this breeding are perfectly within my philosophy I assure you.  
And what was my phillosophe with this breeding? 
OK here is my philosophy here.  I have selected these two breeding's because I like Cir z Vrtovske doliny.  I will outcross these two girls and then I will line breed that progeny .  You like old style Czech dogs. Cir z Vrtovske doliny was most definitely old style Czech  dog  he is part of 4th blood line based  Utz v Haus Schutting ( supper hard dogs Gero, Norbo, and my recent favorite Chuligan z PS)  which directly devepoled itself  from  third male blood line started by my and Max v Stephanitze's original favorite dog
 Klodo v Boxberg! Where we have that drive comminng from. (Grim , Orry, Dargo....)
Also:
Cir z vrtovske doliny is an epitome of old style GSDs. He is  THE OLDEST(!) Czech line, based on ZVV3 line which include his direct ancestors   Dargo z Humnan ZVV3   and Dar z Przma ZVV3 , both dogs were internationa competitors of world class. and extra  super hard dogs, great trackers.  
So please tell me where am I violating my philosophy if I am trying to enhance this dog, Cir z Vrtovske doliny, in my breeding's?

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 
 

cage , when I said watered down , I meant that in a genetic way

unfortunately it is  NOT so that if you have a certain dog on the third generation of your pedigree , that your dog automatically carry that dogs genes , let alone that he will be able to pass that genes on


furthermore Daryll
let me clear up one of the biggest misunderstandings in dogbreeding for you

people allways talk about genetic diversity , and the loss of it by inbreeding
that is not the case , if I have one dog on my pedigree 50 times , the impact on the breed as a whole is nothing

on the other hand , if one dog is on every dog in the worlds pedigree , the impact on the breed as a whole is humongous ,and that will cause loss of genetic diversity

and its not the question of what they should or shouldnot  bring in , every now and  then something new was added , for improvement , but now thet flooded with westlines for all various reasons

Steve Schler. Yes it is the truth with minor correction. It is best not to go back to a wolf (HAHA)  but it is advantageouis to  learn about  blood lines specifically male blood lines. These were started by these dogs.
1 gone.
2.Hettel Uckermark
3. Klodo v Boxberg
4. Utz vom Haus Schütting
5. Rolf vom Osnabrücker Land
 You  have what ever you need in these lines .  Read my post above and see how i am using it. 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 

hans , Im not saying you are violating it , im saying I cant find any alpine bred dogs build upon that philosopie , where the most things you say about breeding sound  like musik to my ears

Thanks for your response Hans.

I thought that it might be a stupid question/observation, but I asked anyways.  I do not pretend to know more than very little about breeding and the many lines and varieties of GSD's.

Yes, I have read your description of some of your philosophy and practice in what dogs are in the not too distant past that provide the foundations of your stock and their intended genetic input into your program.  Of course I can only gain a fairly superfiscial understanding due to my real experience level (limited), but still it is very helpful in developing a better understanding not only of your program but of philosophies of selective breeding in general. 

Thanks again for your contributions and encouragement!  I am sure I express the sentiment of many when I say that.

SteveO

PS
Thanks also to the many others who have brought their thoughts, considerations, and observations to this discussion!

Duke, but I have bred under different names. Please reread my erlier posts here. It is not really matter of ego for me.
From Now on it is going to be AlpineK9.
Hans

Fellofher asked:Hans,
In your opinion who are the top 2 or 3 stud dogs available in North America to carry on the genetics of the Old type Czech dogs?

Do you know what would happen to me if I would answer such question on the PDB forum?:))

Do you want me to get killed?!

  HaHa

Look the answer is: "  There is no silver bullet solution.  It depends on the female you want to breed. There are many known and unknown dogs." And I am truly believing that and I am not  giving you just  a cap out.  If you have specific breeding in mind than e mail me a link to a "mating check here" . But keep in mind that you must do your home work and have a reason to breed such pair . I can look at it then . But I am not a god and I make mistakes too. So please cut me a slack.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com