Clicker training - Page 10

 Micheal, you bring up a valid point. But what is aversion/coercion? Everyone seems to have a different opinion.
What is abuse to one, is training to another! This is true to varying degrees....

To some, the very use of a NRM is an aversion and looked down upon.

 

I guess it depends on where you draw the line between abuse and training.....

I think it's entirely dependant on the dog and handler. Their is no formula for success. I'm in agreeance that training a serious working dog to a high level of  performance would require SOME level of aversion. But, I would hope any dog trainer would make every effort to use as little force as possible - even if it took some extra time and brain-power.

 I use the word correction a little different with my clients.
And I guess more "in line" with the latin meaning. LOL
I try to get them to think of a correction almost like correcting a path. Not only as a negative correction but sometimes merely a pointer with some help to head down another trail.

beast,                                                                                                                                                                                              I'm far from being a great trainer in any sense of the word, but I consider the handler and dog as a team. I want to see the dog work out of love and respect for the handler, not  fear of the handler. I want the dog 100% bonded to me and working because it is a pleasure and he enjoys it. For me a correction is equal to a reminder  for the dog to stay focused on the task at hand, not punishment for being bored , distracted or a littlle to excited. A hard dog that requires hard corrections are not my cup of tea, I personally would find no pleasure in training that type of dog.

Oh I understand that in the society where people forgot to talk and while standing 5 feet apart communicate via texting, have problem to with use of  the voice in timely fashion.   However  I do not believe that monotonous clicking is better then voice with its pitch , loudness and quality of harmonics, rhythm, color, melody,.........in order to communicate with people, dolfins or dogs. I do not want a machine or robot  responding to clicks. I want a friend, buddy, partner. How would you feel if I would tell you to communicate with your children with a  monotone inflection of clicks of a   Morse code because it would be more "efficient" and "faster" to communicate with them . You would think that I have a screw loose.   Now in my research on this topic I have found out that in name of efficiency they are starting a program in school using "clicker" = remote TV style controls. Brave NEW WORLD ,...SCARY SH.T!
 
Beast.
 Do you really believe that money are made only on items which cost more then $3?
And besides that what about the books and seminars and Pet s Mart " free" give away clickers in order to communicate how touchy feely and caring  they are. And Sea world oh do not forget the Sea world which is holding in captivity Orcas in little basins. They must repair their image with humane clicker training. How nice! 
And what bothers me most about books like the one of  Karen Prayor is that she will right of the bat say same thing as some of you do. I am better trainer then you are because I use humane modern scientific methods and rest of you are bunch of meanies and knockle draging Tryglodytes with leashes and collars. While every beginner in dog training knows that there is a positive learning faze of training and then there is a conditioning faze and then there is a practicing faze and only in practicing faze you should use positive and humane negative reinforcement.
But do not let me started.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 Hans, did you read her book "Don't shoot the Dog" yet?
Try it. Just because.
Maybe the most you will get out of it is a few chuckles.

Your arguments are those of a person judging something based on a few snippets. The last post I will say is way out of line in what clicker training is. You are still hung up on the actual clicker.
We may or may not be good advocates of the whole method. 
Nothing will replace playing with it  yourself. 

Clicker means nothing if not paired with a reward (treat, toy, praise etc). As such it needs no emotion. It is a marker.
 All it tells anyone (and I have used it with humans and it was a lot of fun watching them play with it just for fun to illustrate the thoughts behind it) is that something just happened that was good. Something they were shown to, enticed to, lured to, asked to do, was executed well. How do they know it was good? Simply because they have been conditioned to know that when they hear the marker (not using the word clicker here!) a reward that is of value to them, will follow. Something they want to work for. Therefore they will work harder the next time around. 
At the risk of sounding silly, it is like a photograph. A single tiny, moment in time that has been highlighted in the mind of whoever is playing with it.

The clicker does not take away teaching, showing, repeating, proofing. It is still training. Just from a different angle. And to me, it also does not exclude corrections and at times some compulsion. But I am not a purist.

I personally think the clicker is one of the things that come and go in dog training , just like koehler,toman etc
I see big names that were big before the clicker , starting with it , but already gave up on it also

as any tool in training clicker only works for those that can read the dog proper and click and feed at the right time
it adds nothing to anybody s qualities as a trainer , its mainly  nothing more or less than another piece of equipment , worthless like any other if used incorrect , and therefore , for me lies the secret in dogtraining in the trainers , not in the tools

as far as the clip of the 101 things to do with a box , do any of you believe this cant be done without a clicker , and secondly , what is the functionality of this

as far as books about this , they are mostly not anything more than someones opinion on paper , and there is always another book(opinion)saying its another way around

you gotto find out what works for you and your dog , and if you think the clicker will do it for you , go for it , but I think there is nothing you can do WITH the clicker , that you cant do without it

ps , I train positive WITHOUT a clicker

Thanks Duke1965
 that is what I am saying.
HB Fanatic said
Clicker means nothing if not paired with a reward (treat, toy, praise etc). As such it needs no emotion. It is a marker.
MY point exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And all I am sayinghere for 3 days now is that  for marker we can use our voice! "Click, Click" or "Good boy" or "Yes" or "Hodny" or whistle or,..... Pavlov's bell,.....  or trombone or what ever dohicker or hoochikoochi you use  is to the dog all the  same thing! I have NEVER said anything else except that I am minimalist and that I do not like dohickers, klickes or trombones to stimulate my dog  which could be misplaced or lost. I prefere my good old reliable voice.  Whistle for example  had been used for probably hundreds of years. Are you are telling me that whistle is different than clicker? Clicker  is just another stimulus. At least whistle has a legitimate reason for controlling a dog on distances beyond ability of human voice. And books claiming that the clicker is something new and revolutionary and scientific and more humane are ......what ever . I am not going to go there because I do not want to be called "over the top" or "ignorant".
 There is nothing new in principal of dog training. Clicker is a different adage or gnome on the same principal discovered or described by Pavlov and Skinner and so on. That is why I am saying the clicker is just another gimmick.
 Look I have read hundreds of books an dog training and I can tell you that I could have read maybe only 3 or 5 the  the rest are just different approaches or different tools used with the same principal. Some are interesting and some are boring. Yes, from each I can learn something new, yes, yes , yes. And I am also saying that there is nothing which someone is doing with the clicker =  yet another tool which I can not do with voice or whistle or trombone and which had not bee used before.  
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
 

Lets try this again, while some people that have the ability to mark with their voice, not everyone does. Some people have trouble with verbal commnication with other humans,much less a dog. Some people don't have the gift of verbal communication at all, seems to me the clicker is a wonderful tool in the hands of someone  without the ability to speak or speak clearly. As I said above, each to his own device, there is no right and wrong side to this argument. If the clicker works for you, use it, if it doesn't then by all means use whatever you desire, whats the point in saying it's a useless gimmick simply because you don't approve of it.

michael49
Please stop putting your words into my mind. Nowhere have I said that clicker is usless. I totall agree with your argument above and I have said  and I qote myself again so that you do not need to look for it Qote:

"I am saying that I personally do not like to wedge between me and the dog unnecessary devices. I am interested in a relationship with the dog more then performance. It is my philosophy. I am minimalist in training. I do not like or need much equipment to train a dog. I am trying to do more with less. That is me though you do what ever you want.  
 I am not against that."
end of the quote.

Please read what I have actually said before you critisize me.

I have also said that :
"Oh I understand that in the society...........................................there are peope who , have problem to with use of the voice in timely fashion. However I do not believe that monotonous clicking is better then voice with its pitch , loudness and quality of harmonics, rhythm, color, melody,.........in order to communicate with people, dolfins or dogs. I do not want a machine or robot responding to clicks. I want a friend, buddy, partner.. "

Again I emphesize "I"
Sorry for the colorization.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 Exactly Micheal....
Marker training is MARKER training, irregardless of what you use to mark the behavior. Some use clickers, some use verbal markers.....it really doesn't matter. However, most people tend to be much faster with a clicker then with voice markers. Using a clicker, initially at least, really seems to speed up the process and keep training precise. Due to it's speed, the clicker makes it less likely for someone to mark an undesired behavior. It's a fantastic tool in the right hands.... It really comes in handy for very fast, energetic dogs + those with issues focusing. 


The "box game" was created as a starting point for conventionally  trained dogs. Basically, it teaches them "hey, when he makes that sound, I get a treat". It also teaches the handler how to "shape" behavior and improve their timing - without any detrimental consequences to the training regime. 


A "click" is ALWAYS paired with some kind of reward (no, it's not always a treat!)