Clicker training - Page 11

 I'm so glad you decided to familiarize yourself with this method. I think you'll be surprised!
I do think Karen Pyror is a bit sensational. You may very well get a bad taste in your mouth from reading her book intially. Can I suggest you pick up something by Jean Donaldson, or Brenda Aloff? Much better authors, IMO.

For MOST of my life, I looked down upon clickers quite passionately for all of the "reasons" quoted here in this thread. After hitting a low point in dog training, I was willing to try anything. Out of desperation, I bought a few books and a clicker. Only after months of reading and debating did I try apply what I'd learned. What a surprise! I have a much better understanding of canine behavior. My dog is doing exceptionally well and is nearly trial ready. Our relationship is MUCH better. He is more comfortable around me and highly responsive to my interaction with him. What's best? I can get the best of him without ever raising my voice, snapping a lead or using a training collar. He is much more reliable and HAPPY.

I love this method, I hope you enjoy it too Steve. 

I do not believe that it is possible to reliably train a high drive dog to perform without compulsive training at some point.

Done all the time.  Fact.  There are seminars by high level AKC trainers available, books, mentors, videos.  But you have to be able to be open to the fact that it CAN happen.  SOme people can't let this into their mind. It bothers them.  And this comes back to the whole "who is the better trainer" arguement.  Which ends up making someone somewhere defensive!

Like so many things in life, EACH INDIVIDUAL has their own idea of "best".  For one person, the "best" trainer wins the national no matter WHAT stress they put their dog through. No matter how unfair the training.  For another, like myself, I see "best" as the most "talented" in that they can reach a high level with skill that puts minimum stress on the animal.  

Dog training has always been attractive to at least two types of people. Having been involved in it over 35 years, I've seen plenty of the "militaristic" types that want to believe they have this really hard core animal that only THEY can control by their macho domination of it.  At the other end of the scale you have some "cat lady" who wants to be "her dog's best friend" and never say no, no matter what.   Most people fall somewhere in the middle, depending on temperament and experience. 

Dog training is a "sport" for *most* of us, which means we do it for PLEASURE.  This is an important consideration: what gives YOU pleasure?  When I watch some of the really old time, "big name" folks around here train with their electric shock and their riding crops, I understand what gives them pleasure. Nothing anyone can say will change their opinion, as they are getting out of the "sport" what they need/want, and will defend it vigerously.  When I go out and "cookie train" with my guys, I am getting what I need/want and will defend it just as vigerously.  What you won't hear me say is that one method of the other HAS to be used to have success, because that is a false statement. After many years of traditional training I set out to get a FR Brevet on my male pit bull (high drive is an understatement!) without EVER giving him a leash correction. I did it, earning 3rd place out of 8 dogs at our first trial, and I can honestly say that it was the most amazing learning experience FOR ME I had ever experienced. That gratification was super rewarding to ME, and caused me to go on with positive training. 

Again, dogsport people do what pleases them. Its what they want to do on a Saturday.  Nobody is putting a gun to our head and saying "train that dog or else".  Just remember this when you watch someone train, and remember that the defensiveness and arguement comes from the fact that they are defending something important to them.

 NIce post Diane, I agree to some extent. But, I'd like to think many of the "old timers" don't know any better. 
I think it's unfair to say they're getting what they want out of shocking and choking a dog. I believe they're confused. What they WANT is the result and unfortunately - they only know one way to get it.  I think most of the oldies get gratification out of having a well-trained dog, however they do not thrive on the process of such. How many of us REALLY want to be physical with our dogs? I doubt many here do. They use corrections because they cannot get the same results any other way. 

Hans, nothing I said was directed at you personally, sorry you took it that way. What I said was directed at the group of people who consider it a gimmick or a gadget that is  without any merit in the training of a dog. I personally don't use the clicker, but I have toyed with it in training the basics and have found that it works very well for marking or shaping a behavior. I respect your knowledge, experience and ability, but just because something has been done a certain way for many years does not mean that it is the best way. Look at the changes in attitude about old school training and what has evolved from those days to present, would you not agree that that there are better methods in practice today? Who knows what tomorrow will bring. Anyway I'm sorry you thought I was addressing you personally, it was not my intention

 But, I'd like to think many of the "old timers" don't know any better.


A good point, since so many of us started with punitive, correction based training because that is all there was.  However, why do some people seek out more positive methods while others resist them, seemingly at all costs?  If I'm doing something I'm not getting "rewarded" at some level for, I'm going to experiment until the reward is more consistant.

I think Dave is right when he points out that Seaworld routinely rewards and reinforces the whales and dolphins in the show. At clicker expo this year, a presenter told a story of a trainer that did the whole routine whithout a single reward. When another trainer did the same thing a couple hours later, the whale bit his hands off. Our trials are that one performance that we train the dog up to and we better have a very motivated and persistant dog. So what better example but the dogs we breed for their drive and persistance?. Seaworld does many more shows than we do with our dogs, three shows a day, while I only do a trial every six weeks or so. If I can reward my dog intermitantly throughout his training, I might be able to get a worthy performance every six weeks or so at trial.  Or to occasionally get away with trialing twice in one weekend. Diane is also right when she points out the amazing things you can shape with a clicker. How about blowing bubbles in a water dish? Look it up on youtube.
The one thing that I would really like this board to implement is qualifications after everyone's name. If you haven't trained a dog up to Sch 3 or equivalent, with compulsion or otherwise, why do you feel free to comment on other's training methods and how that holds up in competition?
I think that it is a very legitemate question of whether purely positive can get a dog to high quality competition. We don't know since no one seems to be doing it. But we also don't know that it can't be done and is anyone even trying? If you haven't delved into clicker training, pure shaping, then you can't comment on the pros or cons of it. You don't know. If you haven't used an e collar to get a dog to a sch 3 (I have) then you can't comment on the clear uses of the e collar.  
I won't say that Reiki has never had a correction (15 pinch collar corrections in his whole life) but then we'd have to define correction or compulsion and get all mad over definitions, and whether managing a dog on leash during teaching a hold and bark is correction or not. 
I do know you'd better say the right cues during trial because darn it, the dog is really listening to you!
Shade

Hey Shade!

Honest question from somebody willing to learn.

How important do you think that the clicker is to acheiving sucessful training compared to a verbal marker?

SteveO

No training accomplishments or credentials, but that has never been a secret.

I didn't know this thread was only about how well the dog can score in short exercises in competition on a field or ring.  I thought it was about dog training.  I have seen plenty of SchH dogs or other competition dogs who were not "trained", I have a SchH3 and SchH1 here and neither would be considered "trained" just from doing SchH.  Can someone train a competition obedience dog with all-positive, yes, I believe so, and ESPECIALLY if they WASH OUT every dog who does not work for purely positive.  But what does that mean, a dog that pulls them to the field and is only worked 1x a day in high drive routine, then crated or put up in a run the rest of the day?  It's no shock to meet a handler with a Golden who has trained all positive for ob, but the high drive dogs that also do protection require correction at some point.  I would not want to own a protection trained dog who did not understand a correction.  What are you to do if they show inappropriate aggression to someone?  It has to be answered with a correction.  My dad comes over, I let him in, and my dog lets out one huff or growl, I will give the dog ONE verbal warning "pfui", and if he continues I will correct that dog.  They have to learn right from wrong to be safe.  They know, we do not show aggression to people that mom lets in!

In the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" Pryor discusses a problem with one whale trying to aggressively go after the bottlenose dolphins, they did an act together in the same tank.  You cannot correct a whale.  I mean, you physically could (a huge shock collar? LOL) but they would not understand it.  Like how a cat does not understand correction, yet they can be clicker trained.  The solution was to put a lever in the side of the tank to distract the whale.  So instead of trying to kill the dolphins, he would guard his lever and push it for more food.  Dogs need to understand a correction in order to be "trained," and in this way, if your dog ever, for example, became aggressive with another animal, you could use a leash-collar correction to let him know it's not acceptable.  People need this to live in the real world with their dogs.  Your SchH dogs are bred for what they do!  Most peoples dogs do not have this good genetic background, some are low-drive even for food, and some are problematic, do not respond enough to purely treat training, and will be given up to shelters.  They still need to be trained. 

The bottom line:  Conditioning an animal to respond to cues is different than training them.  You can condition a chicken to respond to a clicker, but they do not understand correction like a dog does.  Dogs understand correction from the time they are a puppy with their mother.....
.....

There is a big difference in what a competition trainer wants to see, and what a dog owner wants to see in a well-rounded and well-trained dog.  I want to see a dog understand "Not everything is on my terms, and sometimes there are things I have to do."  A dog in training on a down-stay can have many things on their mind.  They want to walk around and sniff, males want to mark territory, they want to come sit by their owner, they want to play with toys.  I want a dog to know if they stay they will be rewarded, that's why we return to them very often and reinforce it, but they also must know "I HAVE to stay here."  The task is not always worth the reward, not if the dog decides it isn't.  Come when called is a top concern of dog owners, and not every dog is easy to condition for this, no matter how much reinforcement you give, with many dogs you will need to make it a "have to" command.  You have a dog that's medium or low food-drive, low toy-drive, and an independent nature, good luck training him to come with all-positive.  Not everyone owns a well-bred Malinois or GSD.  Training an in-tact male English Bulldog to come reliably off-leash was a recent challenge to me!

I can give you endless examples from my clients, the most recent one is a new client with a dog from a rescue, it's his 5th home, he was returned previously. They required her to take OB class b/c of his issues (goes nuts when he sees other dogs, barks, pulls, very high stim & ADD), and it is a "purely positive" training facility. This woman contacts me crying, the dog is nearing the end of the class and while he can sit/down/stay perfectly, he has made zero progress with his issues, he had to take the class from behind a barrier so he could not see the other dogs. The trainers only suggestion was more treats as dogs approach, several lessons, wasn't working, he would rather go nuts than get food. Lives in the city, no yard, can't avoid other dogs, constant barking. She brings a bag to me with all of what she tried, harness recommended by trainer, head halter, Cesar Milan collar (a strange looking thing which she said helped but the trainer would not allow it b/c it corrects), and a choke chain which she said he almost passed out on. What the dog needs is a clear system. It is not enough that he knows sit, down, and stay on his terms. Because when he does NOT sit, down, or stay, there is no recourse!  This was a very simple case, he is great with other dogs, he was taught heel and then corrected for breaking heel if he lunged for other dogs, then praised/treated when he started heeling and calmed down again.  He as re-learned commands as something that is good to do (will be praised heartily for) but also that he has to do.