VA 1(DK) Karat`s Ulko have lost his title - Page 4

Cedric, when did you become certified? It must have been VERY recently. If you haven't worked the dog what makes your opinion any more relevant that mine? Do you not trust your eyes and experience to evaluate a dog or must you have the sleeve on? Why do thousands of people attend the German Sieger show each year, or any Sieger Show for that matter to see the bite work? Are they not able to get a good idea of the character, temperament, and drives of the dog by watching these exhibitions? If you had given me your opinion of the dog based on hearsay I would have taken it with a grain of salt. Even when told about this dog by friends I still reserved my opinion on the fact that I would judge him for myself based on what I actually saw. My name is not important. I choose to be anonymous on public boards for my own reasons. You have stated who you are in the past, it was not me who "gave you away".

GSDMan i do agree with you on that everyone can make there own judgements on the dog. yes i did recently get certified but only because its is a requirement to work trials now but ive been working dogs for a little over 10yrs now. Yes in some way you can watch the performance and get an idea of the character of the dog but i feel that you can't really get a true idea unless you are their during the training phase. I hope the people reading this don;t see this as a competition between you and I because i just want everyone to stop judging this dog by a video and actually go and see him perform themselves. Touch the dog if possible then make your decision. I didn't see any temperament problems with him as of yet. Doesn't mean he doesn't have it. I also think your opinion is very valuable because when people disagree i would hope the people here would investigate for themselves. Don't just take my word or anybody's word for that matter. I will end on this note. I dont think this dog is for every female but if used wisely i would say he has something to offer. ceddy

I am interested in how any of us can get a real feel for a dog, any dog, based on the "bite work" at a sieger show? I was at the USA Sieger a couple of weeks ago, and saw Ulko, I was very interested in him as I have a half sister to him. If I were looking at the dogs there in regard to breeding and was judging temperment based on what I saw for bite work, I would have walked away sadly disappointed. Granted, weather caused bad conditions on that little field. I didn't see anything aggressive about Ulko. What I saw was what I think was a training issue. But, I saw similar issues with many of the dogs there. These are my opinions, based on what I saw, from my vantage point of the performance tests. I saw a lot of the same issues with many of the dogs, both male and female alike. I can assume that possibly a lack of training lead to many of the issues of not outing, not heeling, and some of the "out of control" behavior I witnessed. Dogs have good days and bad, just as we do. However, is there a consistent pattern of this "type of aggression" as exhibited in that brief video? I think we can all agree that we don't always get the whole picture.

Cedric, no hard feeling here, just a difference of opinion. DeesWolf, can't you see a dog on the field, then approach the dog off the field and have a good idea about the dogs temperament? Although it's not a fool proof method what else can we do? Going to a Sieger Show is supposed to give you a "general idea" about a dog both in anatomy and temperament. These dogs only have one chance to get it right and show case what they have, their handlers and owners know this so there should be no excuse for a poor performance. Another thing that should be considered is not just the dog, but the progeny of the dog. How do they produce? Sadly there were not any progeny groups shown at the U.S. Sieger Show. The weather and conditions of the grounds was used as an excuse. Many people traveled great distances to see the dogs that they would be considering to use in their breeding program. Cancelling the progeny groups robbed us of that chance. This is an SV style show. Nowhere in Europe would a show or trial be cancelled or cut back due to the weather, it's just not done. The bottom line is we can only judge the dog by what we can see of them. We can only judge the dog as producer by what we see of their progeny. We need to see it all in order to make an educated and informed decision on weather to use the dog or not.

I have never met this dog, and only saw the short clip of the video. I am by no means as experienced as many of you that have commented above, and I have more of a question than a comment. If we were to see this behavior from say, a Working/DDR line dog instead of a conformation dog, would we be having the same debate? It seems to me that there is a very distinct difference between the temperments (maybe could be called sharpness?), of the different lines. Almost comparable to the differences that are brought up between AKC and SV line dogs. IMO, the dog gave a warning- "back off"- he settled back down very quickly. This certainly did not seem like an "attack", or act of a vicious dog. To me, this is a strong willed, harder GSD, than what we are used to seeing. (my experience is with working rotties- which tend to be handler agressive more than our conformation GSDs) It seems to me that this is a training issue- I like a bit of spark in a dog. Just my opinions-

I don't think a short clip like this one says anything about the dog. For some reason the handler was touching around the dogs neck. First on the dog's left and then on his right. For heaven's sake why was he fooling around with him? The dog may not have known the handler at all. In canine language, is this not a provacation by the unknown person? A signal of domination? When my puppies are play fighting and grab on the neck, the other fights back. I think the dog simply told the handler he did not like to be "touched" in such a way. If there is a question about temperament on a particular dog, surely then one would have to question how the dog passed his BH to go onto his SchH1 and on. Aren't the working judges not also taking on the responsibility that the dogs being titled have the nerves for the protection work? At least this was my understanding why the BH is a prerequisite before any protection work is judged. I think it is very unfair to the dog, his breeders and owners to use a clip such as this as supposedly providing evidence of poor temperament. If the dog truly meant more than a warning to the handler, he would not have accepted the handler's correction on a show collar. I would have expected the handler then to have at least a bandaid on his finger as his prize for the day. Another question, considering the behavior of the dog, would be if the dog should be excused from the show ring. But that goes beyond the topic at hand.

As usual, lots of blowing of hot air by people who have never seen the dog and are repeating 3rd hand hearsay. First off, let me say Kougar is correct. Ulko did not loose his title, just like Nero Nobachtal did not lose his title. Now to reality, unlike most of you, I have seen Ulko and recently for quite a while up close (i.e from 2 feet) 2 days ago in Union, Illinois at the Topline GSD Club conformation show where Rudiger Mai was judging. Ulko was with his handler Charlie Starr. He is owned by Yumkee Fu. Ulko was not entered into the show because he needs more ring training and obedience. Charlie did not think he was ready to run off-lead and after the fiasco at the USA Sieger Show, did not see point. I spoke with Charlie at some length about what happened in Connecticut. As those of you who were there know, Ulko was disqualified for not heeling. However, he also had outting problems. As one of the previous writers commented, and Charlie acknowledged, he was overloaded. Also, the protection judge inexplicably refused to allow Charlie and Ulko to regroup and come back a few minutes later. The judge forced it, saying do it now or get off the field. But some others were allowed to come back 5 minutes or 20 minutes later when they had problems. Anyway, I saw Ulko. Although he definitely is not aggressive, at this point, he needs socialization. His experiences in Denmark along with his recent transfer have created the need for a readjustment period. Further, his training in Denmark left quite a lot to be desired, to put it mildly, and rather than waste any more time on him, Rasmussen sold him, since he already has Ulk. But to repeat, Ulko is not aggressive. He has a high drive and needs some serious control work with a good trainer. I have no doubt that Charlie Starr will have Ulko ready for the WDA regional under Goldlust and Sieger Show both this October. I saw Ulko do some work with Charlie and he is coming along very nicely. He is ball driven and I expect is going to do some very nice obedience in trials and is going to be something to see at the up-coming conformation shows.

Interesting topic, I daresay! Hi Gertrude, nice name btw ("What's in a name?") You wrote: "As usual, lots of blowing of hot air by people who have never seen the dog" I have serious questions about your defence: "Ulko was not entered into the show because he needs more ring training and obedience." "X did not think he was ready to run off-lead" "Ulko was disqualified for not heeling" "he also had outting problems" "he was overloaded" "he definitely is not aggressive" "he needs socialization" ... Now after reading these lines, I looked at the age of the dog = born in 2001!! And he needs "socialization"? Must learn to heel? Has outting problems? I don't think so. Seems one has the same problems with this dog, as our friend Jack on this board (with all due respect!). The only difference is that his dog is 15 months old, this one will turn FIVE years old! He needs more ringtraining? He needs more obedience? AT THE AGE OF 5?! A lot of time has gone by since Ulm 2003. One obviously has not used it. If Ulko, or any other dog for that matter, cannot behave in a friendly fashion at a breeding show, he must stay at home. Like I said, looking at the footage, waving his tail like an antenna, I would have sent him off immediately. Every judge will do the same. We do not want to see this on the field. It does NOT matter how beautiful he is. He (a GSD) needs to be under perfect control!

* Gertrude Besserwisser writes "Also, the protection judge inexplicably refused to allow Charlie and Ulko to regroup and come back a few minutes later. The judge forced it, saying do it now or get off the field. But some others were allowed to come back 5 minutes or 20 minutes later when they had problems." * Sorry Gertrude but that just was not the case. Ulko was wild and out of control, Charlie tried twice to heal with him to the blind, as he was starting his 3rd attempt Jimmy tried to enter the field to take over for Charlie and the judge (Mark Przybylski) who exhibited a lot of patience up to that point became upset with both of them and told them that this was not a practice field and told Jimmy to get off the field and Charlie to continue on with the routine. At no time did Charlie request, or was he denied an opportunity to regroup; I was standing 2 feet away from Jimmy when this happened. * Jantie, I agree with your assessment 100%.

Hii This is my last comment on this dog. I`M from denmark and i have seen this dog many many times and i know alot of people around ULKO and he was very agresive from very little and up until now....you people from USA...sorry to tell you but its the truth so dont come with all that junk about training....i think he is the dog in denmark who have been on most shows all around the world,he have all BHP 3, IPO 3, and was trained by one of the best trainer in DK and the handler on the show 2005 was the breeder and owner Jimmy Rasmussen.....and i think he know the dog better then any of you guys :-) So Please if you have to tell someting,be sure it is the truth. Best Regards