Working Stud dogs - Page 3

Shelly, Very true about production, the problem is that people don't have the same concept of production. Some people call a dog a producer that has a lot of offspring and made pet owners or beginning SchH trainers happy. While most consider a dog a producer is he has a track record of proven performing offspring (titled SchH, Ringsport, working K9, detection, SAR, etc), majority of offspring are hip certified as having good hips, overall conformation of offspring is good, and overall health of offspring is good. Funny how many kennels in North America have a "producer" standing at stud, yet we don't have a lot of their offspring being campaigned. Yet those "producers" are getting bred quite often. Oh, then there are those that confuse "performers" with "producers".

Mike - good point!!!! Pumping out live progeny is vastly different than calling a dog a "Producer". If a dog is "producing" we hear about it...the good grips, the high drive pups, etc etc. And we hear the opposite too!!! Unfortunately, here in the States, anyone with a male wants it to be a stud! People will breed to dogs in their clubs, dogs in their kennel, over and over, without producing anything of note. If they have an untitled male in their back yard, they will use it before they use their neighbors Schh3 dog. There are probably 15 Schh3 males in 4 or 5 clubs and kennels [WL!!] within 150 miles of me - and most of them have NEVER been bred - a few only been used on their own or club members females. When you see a dog with 5 or 6 litters - heck even 2 or 3 from apparently good females, you want to see titles on those pups. I know one dog who was only used locally, no one has ever heard of him outside the area, with maybe 6 litters, yet there are 2 Schh3 dogs, 1 schh2 dog and 3 BHs....almost every litter had at least one titled dog! The oldest are 3.5 maybe??? And almost all of the dams were SL or SL/WL crosses! At least an indication of producing working ability! In Europe, you see breeders using each others males...they breed to the male who is crossing well with their lines even when there is a dog standing in their kennel who has the proper equipment! Is it any wonder that most experienced people don't look really too hard at US bred pups??? Most small breeders are way too closed minded and kennel blind, they solicit females for their [never bred] males - I get emails all the time wanting me to breed one of my Schh3 KKL females to a male who has never had a litter - for free - oh, except for the pick male puppy of course!! LOL

Mike, What's wrong with selling some puppies as pets and some as working puppies to beginning schutzhund people? How is the sport supposed to grow? I've noticed that "beginning" schutzhund people are often demeaned on many forums. I don't understand it. That being said, give me some examples of "producers" and "performers" in your opinion. I have read your opinions on different forums for years and it sounds like you have a lot of experience. At least a lot more than me. I'm a schutzhund beginner. Jack

It is very surprising that someone would advertise their dog as a stud to consider for breeding, when the stud has not produced anything worthy. Also who has failed on the big stage numerous times. It is also very disturbing that Wscott00 has advertised his dog Kurkey as a stud when he has no progeny listed any where, and who has failed on the big stage as well this is not hearsay I was at the SE regionals, when his dog became very stressed and left the blind. It is very obvious that this dog has nerve issues and should not be considered as a stud and should not be considered a cover partner for any breeding female. The state of the German Shepherd dogs in the United States is very poor because of salesmen who advertise a simple pet quality animal as top breeding material, there are very suitable studs in the U.S. who are not being utilized because we have career salesmen advertising very poor, weak nerved animals as top dogs. Reed.

Jack, you must be very new to the breed or working dog breeding in addition to being new to Schutzhund? You do realize that this is a WORKING breed, correct? Pets and marginal dogs are fine for the ignorant masses, but those who are in it for the long haul with the breed don't look for marginal offspring as proof of strong production capability. It is naive to expect that because a dog produces pets and dogs that are good to new schutzhund handlers (who most of the time, don't really know what's good and what's marginal...though they might think they do), that this dog is a serious producer...new schutzhund handlers who stay at club level and maybe title their dog are not the same as those who go to high level competition, pets and pet owners never see the stress of a serious training program so there is no criteria for evaluation there. It's got nothing to do with demeaning anyone, it's just a plain fact that newer people do not possess the experience to do a trustworthy evaluation, nor do the possess the experience for a serious breeder to base their breeding choices upon. Not putting anyone down, not discouraging people from trying things with their dogs...but lets be honest and call a spade a spade. To breed a dog to multiple bitches (mostly in house) when other offspring from the dog aren't really doing anything or haven't proven themselves...that screams of kennel blindness and allegiance to the dollar, not the breed. Most dogs that are advertised as "producers" are producers in the sense that they've made progeny...but not in the sense that they've proven worth to the breed and its future.

in order for a stud dog to have proven progeny, he must have progeny in the first place, and the only way to get that is to breed him (to quality females). Some stud dogs, including my own, were not bred (not even once) before they were fully titled, KKl and proven in the work first, then they were bred. So for stud dogs like my own, their oldest progeny are only just now starting to look around the corner to titles, adult hip ratings, etc. And in my stud dogs' case, these young progeny are looking very good indeed! I breed mainly in-house because I know my own females very well, wouldn't own one that didn't have the drives or temperament or health that I like. I have bred my stud dog to very few outside females, but have turned away MANY. In fact probably several per month. But anyway in my stud dogs' case, he is older now, but his oldest progeny is only 2-3 years old. And the 3 year old litters (2 small litters) were sold as pet/obedience/companion, because working homes were not available at that time - and because I won't compromise GOOD homes for "working" homes for my puppies. Pretty soon now, the progeny of some stud dogs with "no progeny" will start showing up. Unfortunately many stud dogs are too old or passed away before people realize they should have taken advantage of using him when they could. Smart breeders look at the dog himself, not what he has produced, unless of course they have the chance to see some puppies/young stock for themselves. When I look at any stud dog (and I have used MANY outside stud dogs for my program) I don't look at their progeny unless it's puppies/young dogs, because by the time the progeny are out there winning or making people oooo and ahhhh on the working fields, the stud dog may very well be retired or dead. molly

this thread started as a recomendation on working line studs, wscott offered his own dog & opinion as a reply. and to his credit, Kurkey is SchH3, this includes a good score at a national event. Mike, is you dog Clint vom Seeblick titled beyond a BH?

prok9s, WOW... you've got me beat. Ive had an opportunity to watch you show at several big event and i must say i am very impressed. i dont understand how yourdog brings such power in the bite work yet gives perfect OB. I wasnt able to make it to the.... wait a minute is the Wallace Payne? NO i know Its Gary Hanrahan. NO,NO,no T.Floyd? i thought you liked my dog? Now im all confused....oh well. It is true that I have failed on the big stage. wait a second, we are taking about the SE regionals right. Yeah thats it. what did you think of my performance are the '05 North American, or how about the '06 AWDF, i must admit our performance at the '05 nationals was a lot less than i had hoped. but i was there trying, always 20 or so points behind you. Now that i think about it, its really not worth goin on. Ill tell you what, why dont you and any 15 people you choose meet me and my nerve bag dog somewhere are you can put him thru whatever you want, and i promise he's a stronger dog that any thing you'll bring. lastly prok9s, As i look back at my time w/ kurkey i realize at times ive done some awsome training, but more importantly i realize ive done some shit training. but that is how i fully understand why you are on the world team and not me.

Walter, Gotta love how faceless wonders like to attack huh? Honestly, I hadn't heard of Kurkey until this year, but I'm looking forward to seeing more of him and hearing how he produces (I like his pedigree btw). You sound like a truly grounded, down to earth kind of guy...it takes a big person to admit they've done some bad training (we all have, but not everyone is willing to admit it...usually others are blamed). Based on what you've said of your training ability and the learning curve you've endured, I'd say you're doing pretty damn good. Diechman, Nope, Clint isn't titled beyond Bh and probably won't be either. I did quite a bit of helper work on this dog and liked what I saw, despite the issues created by previous owners. When he came up for sale for a steal, my wife and I decided to go ahead and buy him with the understanding that he'd probably never get a SchH1 due to the conflict previous owners had created in him since he was a pup. I bred him to a bitch of ours to see how he'd produce and to possibly get a really good male for competition for myself. I'm not (nor have I ever) hidden those facts, nor am I ashamed of it. My only regret is that I didn't have the chance to buy Clint as a younger dog.

I do applaud you for trying, lets keep it at trying pal, your dog should not advertise as a top stud dog, he is definitely not a breeding dog, there is a chance he had an off night at the SE regionals, I'll give you that, I'll go as far as to say the dog has had bad training, the fact of the matter is, he left the blind under stress. Look above at your reply you said he left the blind under stress pal.... Reed