How do you teach the dumbell? - Page 6

looking good gripman

@duderino
I know lots of people who know how its not supposed to be done , I only know few that will or can also tell you how it is supposed to be done

Not behind a keyboard.  Like I stated earlier, an exercise like this SHOULD NOT be taught or learned from a computer screen.  You want to learn to retrieve like Gripman???  Go pay him a visit, give him some Benjamins, and he'll show you.

Im fully aware of the fact that you cannot teach this on a keyboard but so far Im only reading negative comments from you ,its easy taking clips and saying this is how its not supposed to be done ,  so even if they dont have the international experience you have , Im enjoying posts from changer and gripman about this subject more as they are positive and show nice retrieves etc

Then I guess you're happy 'cuz life is all about positive happy things, now let's all come together for a great big group hug.  What you didn't see was the beginning, the actual taking and holding calmly and firm.  Those kinds of things should not be shown here.  You saw the dog after hold calmly was already done.  In Changer's case we can only assume that things were done with everybody in the room smiling and singing songs.

i know you cannot show forced apport from the beginning  here , but do you really think any dog showing a good apport is forced , or that forced is the only way and will always work

Actually in my case half the people in the room (or the field) is staring in disbelief because they assume positive can't work. Or they grimace if the dog drops the dumbell when released, thinking it will lead to dropping in the trial. I can't remember anyone ever singing songs but we sure are smiling cuz it's FUN! And the dog actually thinks it's fun too! Ha. Oh this debate is so much fun as well.....

I've only trained one formal retrieve.  My new dog hasn't started yet, and my other dogs did not do retrieves (did not do SchH style obedience at least not past BH).  What worked for the current dog may not work for my future dogs BUT whatever method I chose my goal is to NEVER have to go back and "fix" things.  I don't ever want to have to flail the dumbbell around and have to create excitement/drive for it, don't ever want to run back and clap to get the dog coming back fast and straight, don't EVER want to see the dumbbell dropped or chewed.  Whether I use all mark/reward, or all compulsion, or both, I think I will ALWAYS backchain the retrieve, as a broken down string of behaviors that build on each other, so you never move on until the dog completely understands each step, and you break it down into steps that the dog can very quickly learn correctly.  I can't speak to the videos shared b/c I don't know those people or dogs but of the people I do know and have observed personally, *all* of the problems I see with retrieves are not because the dog is bad or the method is wrong but because the dog just doesn't completely understand what the handler wants.

ETA:  What I like about my current dogs' retrieve is that 1) speed is the same coming back as going out.  He doesn't fly out and then trot back.  The jump and A-frame retrieve are faster overall because the dog loves jumping and the A-frame (also an agility dog) so we are currently working on matching that speed on the flat retrieve.  He's not lightning fast but he's not lightning fast at any exercise, just not that kind of dog, 2) his hold is fabulous if I may say so.  NO chewing, no dropping the dumbbell, outs instantly and pulls his head back, and 3) he retrieves a dumbbell for a ball, so a dumbbell is completely neutral to him and that is what I like.  There is no negative association (I know with compulsion, holding the dumbbell should be the safe spot but I've seen people mess this up and the dog just hates retrieving in general).  I do not do "drive building" for the dumbbell as a prey object because I've seen it create chewing.  The dumbbell is just this innate object that he knows is the gateway to the ball.

 Not really sure why sure why the forced retrieve is some kinda top secret deal here-whether it is an attempt by a professional dog trainer to control the flow of information to add a couple of more Benjamins to his pocketbook or a nod to animal rightists by not admitting to doing something that could be percieved as "not nice" and construed as inhumane.

Whatever...since both of those are bullsh1t reasons for non-discussion, here is a link to how a lot of gun dog guys do it using the negative reinforcement quadrant of operant conditioning. Substitute two pinches, one backtied, for the toe hitch and you've got the method ala old school SchH.

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/the-forced-retrieve-gun-dog-Page2.htm

I would say you have a pretty good dog if the retrieve is mostly
positive....But no one escapes putting pressure on your dog.
Nor should you avoid it....Here in lies the problem....dogs are different
unless you choose dogs that are very similar from your experience.

The big question will always be how much pressure is to much.
I learn this from working dogs that took alot of pressure to get  good
results, only to find very good dogs that with a little pressure at the right time
 performed perfectly. But I always started them properly
as well. The same pressure you may have to use on one dog may
make another dog shut down on you. When I see that I pushed to hard
I call it a day. and next time use less pressure. But I never avoid it.
Good dogs may only need a little....But pressure is part of your training
the dog to move to the next level. Play time is over at some point.

Imho, it is so hard to get a really hard grip if the dog is too relaxed or happy. I think they need a certain amount of stress in their life to get the skeletal muscles to tighten up a bit hence making the grip tight. 

This dog has not done any retrieves in close to 6 months so the grip is a little chewy. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQS-CYl80CE