How do you teach the dumbell? - Page 7

Mainlymax, I agree about using pressure but I don't think it's necessary for EVERY exercise.  I think people that insist you MUST use pressure for a correct retrieve are people who only use pressure and have never succeeded any other way (and likewise, those that say you should ONLY do it positive have probably never had success doing a clean forced retrieve).  My dog is a natural retriever and his retrieve is exactly what I want from him, there's really nothing about it I'd change, and if I trained him over again I'd do it exactly the same way.  My next dog, I really have no idea how I'll train his retrieve....

Gripman, what you say about being too happy makes sense.  I think with my dog I don't *need* pressure to create that because he is so crazy for a ball, knowing it's there and not having it creates enough stress for that exercise, enough to make it clean and precise and snappy without there being avoidance behaviors or chewing or stupid neurotic behaviors.

No matter what exercise is being trained, I don't ever like to have to "resort to" something.  If pressure is the way to go, I use pressure from the very beginning, I don't try "positive" first because I think it's nicer and then resort to pressure later on.  There are many exercises I taught my dog with pure escape training starting at the very first repetition, and there are many trained with lure/reward, and many freeshaped.  I just look at the dog in front of me and decide what tool will be most effective for THAT dog doing THAT behavior.

I didn't say anything in this thread yet because I find myself agreeing with both sides. - sort of.
I had a previous dog that retrieved wonderfully 100% of the time without forced training.
(wish I had a video) She was probably a rare dog.  
With my new dog - I could tell in the beginning that the same training was not working.
My dog is young and I wanted to get a correct foundation so I am starting with some pressure and proceeding one step at a time. I would probably never resort to some of the extreme methods though.

Nice videos Gripman - thanks for sharing them - I liked the pop.

Lee

MY 2 cents .. for what it is worth .. and this advice  is not directed at the experienced .. i already know they will be argumentative .. SO : IF you choose that you and your dog have a need to do a ' forced retrieve' ... then let someoneelse  fully , fully , skilled at doing it , do / teach your dog  the forced retrieve -NOT YOU.. NO MATTER how skilled that you are at doing it .. let someone else do it !!!!!***  then once taught to the dog , then and ONLY then do you undertake that exercise with your dog .. I already know in some minds there is a rebutle / argument ... ' been training & working with [even] experienced as well as inexperienced people for long long long time , . so keep cool / it's an OPINION !! ... If you think you know otherwise .. then best of luck !!   .. I will not explain why !!---  even at a shared thought /opinion  .. the arguments will be flying . .. if you are experienced and can't figure  out  ?? WHY  - i state this ...  then shame shame on you .. for new comers .. i plead with you .. just take my advice !!   one hint to be fair to newcomers : once you start a compulsive retrieve .. you can never never go back ..you cannot undo what has just been done ..  let your consious be your guide and remember .. you have been forewarned .... /   for clarification .. i did not say a forced retrieve is bad or does not have a place !! i said ... let someone else qualified teach it to your dog ! not the handler /owner !! GOOD LUCK 

I agree AP.

I have heard the forced retrieve is widely used in Europe including high trials but I have not seen it being done from start to finish or properly taught by the experts. 

As with all sort of methods (including e-collar) which require a more specialised understanding and knowledge, I do keep an open mind for learning purposes only.  As you say, some methods of training ought to be supervised closely to minimise any risk for the dog to quit or go into avoidance.

Neither Stephanie.   It's not out of fear of AR nuts and it has nothing to do with trainers not wanting to part with money.  The forced retrieve simply is not something you can sufficiently explain how to teach  over the Internet, it's a little more complicated then "step one, step two, step three, voila you now have a forced retrieve and look how great your dogs dumbbell work is."   There is a lot of subtleties and nuance  involved, it's a serious undertaking.   You have to be able to read exactly when enough is enough, things you can only learn from watching many times, someone else who is very good at FR, do it with many different dogs.   Of course there will always be those who's egos overrule what little common sense and wisdom they might have, or those that are too inexperienced to know better, you can tell who they are  by how totally screwed up their dogs are from them trying to teach a forced retrieve based upon what they read over the Internet.  Of course it's usually a mistake made only once, but by then it's too late.

I agree with the points made by Max and also those made by Alpha.  I do know a couple people so skilled they can put that kind of pressure on their  own dogs, but they are the exception, not the rule.  They are also the only people I would trust to do a FR on any dog of mine.  The one thing I do know FOR SURE is  I am not near enough a skilled trainer to even think about training the FR to ANY dog, no matter what I read over the internet !!

sueincc.. oh boy , ..yes , yes !! over the internet ?? .. i have seen experts.. yes experts .. have a difficult time teaching someone even a good dog handler , the forced retrieve face to face , with a dog in hand .. -- how correct you are -  people should know and cherish your post !! !! and please .. don't learn what sueincc has stated the hard way .. it will cost you dearly [ and i don't mean money].

 Dear Sue,

With any training method that uses force, pressure, negative reinforcement, positive punishment et al, the chance of negative repercussions from misapplication are more likely than when using only pos. However, force is more likely to produce reliability.

Attempting to withhold information regarding a method does not lend to the discussion. 

Shall we also not discuss table training and the use of electronic collars because of the chance some mongoloid will go out and abuse his dog in the name of training?

Stephanie  I don't think anyone said force methods, tables, ecollars, etc., shouldn't be discussed, all I and most everyone else is trying to say is you need to learn these methods from an experienced person well versed in whatever the method is before you can teach it yourself.  All we are saying is there are certain things you just can't learn how to do from watching videos over the Internet.  I never said dog training was brain surgery, but there are things you just can't learn sitting in front of a computer screen dialed into YouTube all day or from advise given by any Tom, Dick or Harry  over the Internet. 

No, you should stop trying to learn how to train dogs from the seat of your pants and seek out someone who has taken the time to learn and has a proven understanding of the technique in question and learn from them.

The problem arises when people with little to no knowledge of a technique try and take short cuts to training.  It doesn't take much savvy to buy an electric collar from Gander Mt. or grab a bunch of wood and some screws from Home Depot and now you're a dog trainer?

Take the time, log some hours and go watch someone who has also taken the time and learned and study with them.  No World Champion ever learned to train dogs from the Internet, this is not a video game.

I agree with Sue, I have nothing against FR but don't have the right experience and the ones I've SEEN done (like, dogs/people I KNOW not just YouTube videos of national level dogs showing a finished product) I have not been impressed with.

The same can be said for a completely backchained, freeshaped retrieve though, it is extremely complicated.  People often rush or throw in other bits and pieces (like backtying the dog and waving a dumbbell around, trying to make the dog interested in the dumbbell itself) that create more conflict and problems where there doesn't need to be.  Many people have poor timing when it comes to mark/reward training, or they do not break down the behaviors into small enough steps.  Dogs get frustrated and show avoidance, people start blaming their dog or the method.  Likewise it is not a process that can really be trained and understood "over the Internet".