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' two toys and wait for the dog to drop " not always , that is not always a good idea >?>>>the reason ... the dog may learn the out ... ya... but it learns the ' ou 't paired with the behavior of ' droppining an object" .. so what ?? with many dogs you will see this behavcior transferred when teaching a dog to retireve.. they will bring the object back .. and how will they present .. by droppng the retrieved item .. now you have to go and clean that behavior up if you wish to compete.. / GOOD GRIEF.. Ivan ..--- . did you ever see a dog so high in motivation so possessive ?? i have seen some dogs that would stay with an objedct in their mouth and if you thought ' oh , i won't move , make the object dead ' and ok he'll let go ... WRONG !! I have worked dogs so strong that you can't possible try to hold that object still .. they start to head shake/pushing& pulling bit [ which BTW will also translate to a sleweve in protection work] .. THEY will make that object come alive .. like working a police dog .. if you do a bark/ hold with some . they will literally be jumping at your nose to make you move for a bite !! they WILL WORK YOU !! So .. again and again .. we have to know our dogs ... for some using two balls accompliches what we want .. for some , holding the object accomplishes what we want .. BUT i will tell you : THINK : what is it that can be ingrained in the dog's mind to want to give up the item .. and How best can i communicate exactly what i want from the dog[ that it is intheir interest to let go when i speak ] ... for me .. if i see the dog wants a bite & that is what is ingrained in his mind .. i offfer a better bite than he has .. if a dog wants steak .. i'll offer steak to teach him to out an object. , if the dog is compulsive about an object , then from my hand i'll offer him a like object to take as he outs the first .. the "DOG " always has the answers to any question we ask or technique we seek . and be carful as to what you teach .. teach exactly what you want . If the dog decides to give something up .. then it's easy for him to learn to give it up
In obedience or protection?
In obedience, one dog I had to train using two toys and some correcting (the correcting was because "aus" does not mean chew on the toy for 5 seconds and THEN drop it). Current dog is catching on when I just lock up the tug on my thigh and as soon as he outs I praise him and start the game again.
In protection, I just say it, correct if there's no response, and when the out is clean and correct, "reward" with a bite. The dog already understands the concept by doing it in obedience much earlier. Haven't really had issues with it in protection.
VKGSD ,,, that is wonderful .. every dog is different . we must understand the dog .. what happens : If the dog learns if it doesn't let go , the helper locks up and as a result , the dog let's go [ you think an out falsely] .. a subcategory of an avoiding in the grip / bite .. ?? this can happen in another sport .. in french ring the helper can and will lock the dog and VIOLA the dog is off the bite !! that is why in french ring the dog learns to bite on the middle aspect of the verticle with the eyes pointing outward to the side of the leg it bites !! the decoy cannot close in on the dog as it bites this way and therefore this allows the dog to stay on the bite ... ! But if the dog miscues the entry and bites otherwise , and the dog is not high in motivation to bite hard and to sustain.. ooops .. off the bite the dog comes and exercise blown !!.....point two ... another concearn i have with some dogs .. that is SOME dogs ,,,, you teach the out by enforcing yourself [ a lock up / obedience... ok .../ that's what the dog learns .. when you are in a position psychologically and physically [ with a leash or not] or within proximity of him to enforce yourself .. ok he outs .. take away those parameters then oh oh .. can't enforce the out in a high high motivated dog ... oh oh no out !! same concept as : the dog is controlled leash on .. take the leash off & you can be a gonner - no control .. i don't disagree whith what you did .. ok .. BUT AD NASUEM .. everydog and every handler are different !! thank you for sharing your experience - no gripe - but my aim is to have others see a different dimension if they do that ..always look at the whole picture !!
I agree with Prager--the dog knows the handler/owner from a helper. I have a male that I used a sleeve with for bite rewards. He clearly adjusted his bite with me, compared to what he did with every helper. He figured it out, and he's not even the smartest gsd I've ever had. 
ok,
but when i was talking about a dog noitcing the helper from the handler. is a pup. im talking about my experience with my 6 months puppy.
i know adults dogs are different.
VK GSD ... i reply to you .. but tempered so as you don't feel i am critical -- that is not my intention .. my intention is to share a thought based on a commentary .. so others may have something to contemplate .. : you state you correct id the dog chews ?? why ?? let me ask .. is that a behavior founded on blatant disobedience ??i would ask : WHY is the dog chewing ? what makes the dog feel that it needs to chew .. what does the behavior of chewing mean ? what does the dog communicate to you by the behavior of chewing .. what is the ramifications as to what that mean in regards to other things learned or that will later be taught ?? WHY has the dog learned to chew an item ?? these are questions-- when i train dogs .. i observe/ ervaluate / think .. that is just subjective on my part .. ! i won't make a commentary [ although i could ] . personally .. AND that is just me .. i am not so quick to correct ..will i have to clean that chewing bit up -- yes .. as a matter i refrain from even using that word , corrrect .. .. my preference that i teach .. i teach if need , i will discipline ..[ correcting to me many times something not taught correctly and the dog gets the brunt of it all] .. but that is just my personal subjective view .. ALSO .. NO the dog does not understand the concept contrary to what you think ... either the out/ specific behavior was not taught correctly [ and i am not refering to technique here] OR something exists that makes the dog not want to comply, +/- out cleanly .. , why do i say the dog does not understand ..BECAUSE if it did , in truth , then the dog WOULD .. out or out cleanly !! I know when i teach an out , my dogs will out at a mere whisper , even when most fired up ! there is no need for a cxhewing , unless there is something else as a factor .. ... consider a lot when you train the out .. .. thatere is a lot , a lot that transpires aside from the dog just ,that is , just ... letting go !!
I can say why my dog chews....he gets overloaded with the ball. Other toys are not a problem. We can do obedience with a Kong, Wubba, tugs, a stick off the ground, an old rag for tugging...and you say "aus" and he outs. The ball-on-a-string is different. It makes him a bit nutty. Part of that is my fault, as when he was younger I used to backtie him and make him go crazy for the ball so I always had *something* that was valuable to him to use as a reward and motivator. Why do I say the dog understands? Because firstly, he cleanly and instanly outs ANYTHING except the ball (including protection phase). And secondly, when he has a ball and I say "out", his behavior immediately changes (he starts whining and chewing). To be honest it's really of no consquence to me that he does this. When I want the ball back, I take it back (I jam my thumb over his tongue and he spits it, or I tweak his flank and he spits it). I'm not going to stand there and wait for my dog to out or spend a lot of time training him to give up something instantly when I am the one that initially made him crazy for it. Also you have to consider my training as a whole. This dog likes a bit of conflict and fight. Mind you he is NOT handler aggressive and I've never had problems with him, but in obedience he is the type of dog that gets amped up with prong pops (they are not "corrections" to him). When he gets rewarded with the ball he will throw himself into you, push the string in your hands, because he wants to tug and "fight" over it. Again, because of who he is and how we train, I have allowed and encouraged this behavior, so to me it stands to reason that he would have more conflict outing this object than all the others. But, like I said, when I want the ball, I take it back. Snappy out or not, I control the game.
I have a hard time reading/following your posts so I hope I'm addressing your questions....
As to the first post, I'm not really sure what you mean? My dog doesn't out unless I say out. Likewise when he is guarding and I come up, I train him to remain barking and guarding UNTIL I tell him to sit. I don't tolerate anticipation of the next command/exercise. You're reading too much into that statement. The question was "how do you TRAIN the out?" My currently TRAINED dog does out in protection, and in obedience 99% of the time. But when I initially TRAINED it, obviously there were some times where he was not fast enough for my liking, so I corrected that. I don't expect a dog to be able to perfectly out a sleeve and have full control from the very first time the command is giving. My post was in reference to TRAINING the dog, not whether or not I have an issue with the dog (I don't).
VKGSD .. my post was not a direct reference as to what you do or you .. it was in a reference to illustrate that in teaching an out [ or any other exercise for that matter] we must understand the dog , why it will or will not do something .. and to have people realize that if you teach an exercise whether the out or another ... we shopuld constantly know , what the dog feels , why it feels that way and how it relates to a behavior ..ALL is important and should constanly be analyzed . .. I want peopple to know : learned beahviors from one exercise will transfer to other teachings / behaviors. i want people to not just 'train ' but know what that they teach is what the dog learns.. training should not be , a set of precontrived routines , but well thought of before , during and after a person and a dog interacts.. in my first post , maybe a bit vague .. by 'lock up ' i don't mean the helper freezes and holds completely still ... although as far as i am concearned if the hlper moves or not[ lock up meaning freeeze in place ] the dog should come to understand an 'out' is an 'out' -- i don't care IMO if my dpogs are agitated / threatened .. if i say out .. i expect OUT !! BUT that IMO..... for meaning lock up confusion .. SORRY .. what i mean[ by the helper locks up is that the dog somehow physically manipulated into a position there is no other alternative but to out .. the dog is 'locked up' ..so that it has to give an ' out.'. [ kinda similar to a dog that puts because it is pinched on the rear end ' but as little different ] .. in ring sports this can be done by the helper , with his legs or arms in a trial ..all that he sometimes needfs to do is cover the dogs head , block his sight , headlock the dog [ a number of options ]] .. so if one trains a the dog to out when 'locked up' or physically manuevered, then that will transfer when working a dog on a body suite .. when locked , the dog can be pushed into avoiding and 'out' / come off the bite . / .. as stupid as it sounds this is how i have some people even use a Sch sleeve.. there are different methods in using a Scxh sleeve to lock-up the dog . ok one way is to use a leash and string the dog up / off the sleeve , sometimes from the ground ./sometimes from the hlper , which is incorrect BTW. .. [ i don't mean into the bite- tha'ts different. ] again .. my same point .. we have to be careful as to how we train/ teach because what is learned by the dog has more reprocussions than we think .. well at least you did state you made the dog craze for it -- that's ok .. no problem .. the wise feature is : that at least you are wise enough to know & to have refelcted in thought . and , there lies my point made : we should be refelctive in teaching the out [ how , why , etc etc about the dog] . although specificly re : you -- the dog does not understand in absolute .. out means out !! at least you know in the dog's mind , context comes into play .. and that is what you have set .
my dogs don't hear OUT or AUS a whole lot as pups or young dogs. i am more concerned with their grips than i am with how i get them to OUT. when i use the words OUT or AUS i use them in conjunction with my mind. they know i am serious and must release. if the dog is clear, focused and calm in his grips, the out will come naturally. if the dog is not calm in the grips, there will be conflict in outting as well.
pjp
it starts in obedience where out is out , ball , toy , dumbell , out means out , if thats good move on to biting , than you can move one pillow for another one ,
the dog gets the pillow , helper graps another one and gives command out , by doing this the helper also rederect attention to him , if you do this before every biting session most dogs will out without conflict , some might need different aproach
method as described in beginning of clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5plll-hjHo
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