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by Duderino on 29 March 2011 - 22:03
"Schutzhund Soccer Style Kick" and a poke in the eye with a sharp stick (you, not him).
by ziegenfarm on 31 March 2011 - 16:03
i hope we can discuss this without getting into an argument. i have some questions for duke:
1. we are talking about "training" the out, so one could safely assume we talking about pups, young or at least green dogs. why would you put obedience training on a pup before establishing a good grip?
2. how is trading one object for another training the "out?"
3. why would i allow the helper to command my dog/pup to out?
4. in the video, i see the dog outting of his own accord - without a command. why or when is this acceptable - for the dog to out on his own?
5. you also go on to mention that other dogs might need a different approach. what would you consider an alternative method.
i am not saying that your method wouldnot work, but it is not a method i would choose. i am wondering at your thinking and if i am missing something here. please explain.
pjp
1. we are talking about "training" the out, so one could safely assume we talking about pups, young or at least green dogs. why would you put obedience training on a pup before establishing a good grip?
2. how is trading one object for another training the "out?"
3. why would i allow the helper to command my dog/pup to out?
4. in the video, i see the dog outting of his own accord - without a command. why or when is this acceptable - for the dog to out on his own?
5. you also go on to mention that other dogs might need a different approach. what would you consider an alternative method.
i am not saying that your method wouldnot work, but it is not a method i would choose. i am wondering at your thinking and if i am missing something here. please explain.
pjp
by duke1965 on 31 March 2011 - 17:03
ziegenfarm , ill go point by point
1 obedience training can start at 8 weeks , I dont care for grip at that age , how grips will turn out is a lot genetic and a little training , I started biting with my current dog at 8 months , out in biting comes later , but in obedience , out is out by changing objects
2 a dog needs to link a command with an action , so if you give command out , and present a more wanted toy , the dog will open his mouth to get the other toy , if you do this frequently , the dog wil connect the command out , with opening his mouth , to put it simple
3 this has to do with timing ,and rederecting the dogs attention to the helper , later on you switch to giving the command yourself
4 dogs are smart and know what is coming next , if trained frequently , this is the basis of shaping behaviour , you want the dog to out on command , not before command , but if you get in program the sleeve doesnot drop on the ground after out and dogs pick up the new routine easily , its youst about shaping the dog , out means mouth open
5there are lots of methods of outing , but most will create conflict where changing doesnot
few methods are
helper pulling the dog towards sleeve with line under sleeve
helper poking the dog on underjaw with back end of stick/whip
lifting the dog from the ground(front legs) by his collar
pinching the dog in the skin in front of his backlegs
E collar
electric sleeve
1 obedience training can start at 8 weeks , I dont care for grip at that age , how grips will turn out is a lot genetic and a little training , I started biting with my current dog at 8 months , out in biting comes later , but in obedience , out is out by changing objects
2 a dog needs to link a command with an action , so if you give command out , and present a more wanted toy , the dog will open his mouth to get the other toy , if you do this frequently , the dog wil connect the command out , with opening his mouth , to put it simple
3 this has to do with timing ,and rederecting the dogs attention to the helper , later on you switch to giving the command yourself
4 dogs are smart and know what is coming next , if trained frequently , this is the basis of shaping behaviour , you want the dog to out on command , not before command , but if you get in program the sleeve doesnot drop on the ground after out and dogs pick up the new routine easily , its youst about shaping the dog , out means mouth open
5there are lots of methods of outing , but most will create conflict where changing doesnot
few methods are
helper pulling the dog towards sleeve with line under sleeve
helper poking the dog on underjaw with back end of stick/whip
lifting the dog from the ground(front legs) by his collar
pinching the dog in the skin in front of his backlegs
E collar
electric sleeve
by ziegenfarm on 31 March 2011 - 18:03
thank you for answering so quickly. i hope that some others will comment whether they agree or disagree and if they do or don't use these methods. i have to get ready for work now, but i will keep your comments in mind and hopefully come back on here later tonight or tomorrow and share some of my thoughts. we all have encountered various problems in outting and i believe some of these problems are generated by our training methods ---you know, things we have to go back and fix later.
pjp
pjp
by Rik on 01 April 2011 - 05:04
don, not an expert by far. but I am training my bitch for her lifetime breed survey. she is very strongly prey oriented.
I just tell her to sitz (which is drilled into her strongly) when the action stops. so far it is working.
working on the geblaut now. I do not plan on being embarrassed when I present her if it shows up on youtube.
And by the way, where is the real Don. You ain't said s**t funny in weeks. Don't you go all serious on me.
Rik
I just tell her to sitz (which is drilled into her strongly) when the action stops. so far it is working.
working on the geblaut now. I do not plan on being embarrassed when I present her if it shows up on youtube.
And by the way, where is the real Don. You ain't said s**t funny in weeks. Don't you go all serious on me.
Rik
by Don Corleone on 01 April 2011 - 14:04
Sorry, Rik. I've had a lot of funerals and weddings to attend to lately. If you go to youtube and put in "Chaz Reinhold", maybe you will get a laugh or two out of my videos.
by Chaz Reinhold on 01 April 2011 - 14:04
Oops! Wasn't supposed to post with DC anymore. Forgot I was logged into DC last night checking PMs. Jeff asked me to stop posting as a "wannabe gangster", so I obliged. No more Don.
by ziegenfarm on 01 April 2011 - 16:04
1. i will agree that obedience can start at 8 wks, but i would like to make a distinction between formal obedience and everyday obedience. puppies do need to learn a few things at that age, if nothing more than to keep them safe and build a bond with the handler. imo, 8 wks is too early for the "out."
2. a couple of very smart ladies told me some time ago, that it is more important to acheive the action first, then teach the command. i have to agree with that. you can give a command all day long and if the dog has no clue what you are asking, you will not get the desired response. if you teach the dog to out and he understands it, then adding the command to out will give him a word for that action or state.
3. allowing the helper to command my dog - never. commands and corrections (and praise) should always come from the handler. no exceptions. i don't care if the helper also happens to be the training director of the club, the commands always come from the handler. allowing the helper to command your dog is setting yourself up for failure---what happens in a trial when the helper tells your dog to out? or in a personal protection dog, the bad guy commands your dog to stop?
4. much of what has been brought up has more to do with correction than actual "teaching of the out." when i think of correction, i think of an older dog, one that has either had training issues or has become willful and bully. pulling the dog into the sleeve, poking him with the stick, choking, pinching and e-collar are all correction methods that some folks use, not teaching methods.
regardless of what methods a person uses in training the out, the final proof comes in time. if the dog, as an adult, keeps having issues, needs continued corrections and needs cleaning up then it becomes pretty obvious that the initial training of the out was faulty. we should not have to keep going back to clean up problems. that in itself should alert us to the fact that we need to do some serious thinking about the way we train.
pjp
2. a couple of very smart ladies told me some time ago, that it is more important to acheive the action first, then teach the command. i have to agree with that. you can give a command all day long and if the dog has no clue what you are asking, you will not get the desired response. if you teach the dog to out and he understands it, then adding the command to out will give him a word for that action or state.
3. allowing the helper to command my dog - never. commands and corrections (and praise) should always come from the handler. no exceptions. i don't care if the helper also happens to be the training director of the club, the commands always come from the handler. allowing the helper to command your dog is setting yourself up for failure---what happens in a trial when the helper tells your dog to out? or in a personal protection dog, the bad guy commands your dog to stop?
4. much of what has been brought up has more to do with correction than actual "teaching of the out." when i think of correction, i think of an older dog, one that has either had training issues or has become willful and bully. pulling the dog into the sleeve, poking him with the stick, choking, pinching and e-collar are all correction methods that some folks use, not teaching methods.
regardless of what methods a person uses in training the out, the final proof comes in time. if the dog, as an adult, keeps having issues, needs continued corrections and needs cleaning up then it becomes pretty obvious that the initial training of the out was faulty. we should not have to keep going back to clean up problems. that in itself should alert us to the fact that we need to do some serious thinking about the way we train.
pjp
by duke1965 on 01 April 2011 - 17:04
sure you dont teach the out at 8 weeks , but basic obedience can be done without a problem
2 so you wait for the dog to out by himself , then you yell out , and that will teach him ?
hmmm I wait till the dog stops eating my chair , than praise him for stopping , and he will never do it again
3disagree with you totally , many situations where you dont want your dog to know where the correction is coming from , or be sure he is not expecting you to correct him
if your dog goes in the blind and is not clean , and you are on the field , do you want the helper and possible third man to do nothing , let the dog misbehave till you finally made it to the blind to correct him , and do you think correcting him that late wil get your point across
4 so if a dog doesnot out , and you correct him , thats not a learning experience
nowhere noway will it be possible to teach a dog something once , and expect him to do that for the rest of his life , if that makes you wonder about the way we train , I think your wondering about the wrong thing .
2 so you wait for the dog to out by himself , then you yell out , and that will teach him ?
hmmm I wait till the dog stops eating my chair , than praise him for stopping , and he will never do it again
3disagree with you totally , many situations where you dont want your dog to know where the correction is coming from , or be sure he is not expecting you to correct him
if your dog goes in the blind and is not clean , and you are on the field , do you want the helper and possible third man to do nothing , let the dog misbehave till you finally made it to the blind to correct him , and do you think correcting him that late wil get your point across
4 so if a dog doesnot out , and you correct him , thats not a learning experience
nowhere noway will it be possible to teach a dog something once , and expect him to do that for the rest of his life , if that makes you wonder about the way we train , I think your wondering about the wrong thing .
by ziegenfarm on 01 April 2011 - 18:04
i guess this means we won't be training together. LOL. thanks for the discussion & good luck to ya.
pjp
pjp
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