Need ob advice.... - Page 1

Ok, so here are the things we're doing.... Nero will do a sit in motion, stand in motion, recall, flip finish, stand from down, down from stand, sit from stand, stand from sit, directed hurdles but I'm having ONE problem on the heel work. I carry my ball on a rope in my right hand hanging down at my side, lead in left. So long as I have the ball in my hand, the heeling is focused in slow, regular and fast speed, turns are sharp... but as soon as he sees my hand is empty (could even be in my pocket) his attention is no longer on me and he lags. I don't reward after every little good or fast thing, I just tell him good boy and when I reward my word is "yes". I intermingle when he is rewarded, sometimes after a really nice finish and most of the time it's after a few minutes. Any suggestions on transfering attention back to me with no reward in hand? I know they're not going to let me bring a ball on trial day :)

Thanks a bunch

Melissa

For what it's worth.

Magic bucket!

Get a plastic bucket, turn it upside down.  Build drive like crazy then set the ball (toy of choice) on the bucket.  

Go a few steps out and set up to heel counter clockwise (so the dog never comes across your body).   Reinforce that "Fuss" means focus on you.   It'll take a little time but the picture is...

"Fuss,"
Dog's attention comes up to/stays on you.
"Yes!" - Release and the dog gets to go to the bucket and get their toy.

This way the dog has to look away from the toy to have any hopes of revceiving their reward and the behavior you are rewarded is 'look at me' not 'glance around my body for the toy hanging off my fingers'.

It will probably be a case of going about 20 steps back, because you'll have to proof from basic, up to actually being able to heel in motion but as you go along you can extend your game to having the bucket in place and be heeling everywhere on the field but the 'reward' is release to get the toy on the bucket.

Ooo ooo oooo gettin in shape for October!  :o)

I agree with RLHAR.  I used to hold a toy and learned my dog was overly dependent on it as a lure.  Now I place it on the ground, or in/next to some sort of marker, or I hold it in my left hand behind his head.  Usually it one of the former, toy not on "me" anywhere.  I started by putting the toy on a marker, making a big deal of it (I WANT the dog to know it's there and not on me).  Then I give the heel command and march straight away from the toy/marker, correct the dog if I need to.  I started with just a few steps and "yes!", release to the toy.  Now the dog will do as much heeling as the entire pattern before I release him to it.  I want him to know where it is and that he can earn it but he has to focus on me and not just be locked onto the toy as a lure.

Well the dog doesn't believe that it is there if he doesn't see it. I would go back to just working on focus and reward immediately for focus when the dog is both in the front and in the heel position without motion at first. You can let him see you hide it at first, but you need to get that focus there before you move on, and when you do move on, I wouldn't worry about going to far with him in the heel position. If he is giving good focus, reward. The dog hasn't learned that when you say heel, focus is a major part of it. Same with the front. I don't hold the reward in my right when we are heeling. It may cause the dog to crab and forge because the reward is in your right. I like to practice the focus in the heel and I will put the ball right in the dogs face and he shouldn't take his eyes off of me.---------------------------forgot to add, you can add a command for the dog to look at you. Most people use the word "watch".

Ok, let me add a little bit... when we're heeling with the toy in my hand, he NEVER looks at it, never forges, never looks away from my eyes. He has direct eye contact 100% of the time.

I tried to put the ball on the ground and heel around it, but after 5 minutes of correcting Nero for not focusing I had him sit and put him up. He never looked at the toy on the ground, but would also not look at me.

While doing any other excersise besides heeling Nero has no problem with focus.

Great suggestions so far. I've got some new things to try tomorrow. Thanks a bunch :)

T we're definately going to be prepared for October .. he he... I can't wait to see my little devil :)

Melissa

IMO ... the dog has learned exactly what you have taught .. you taught well ..BUT IMO the wrong lesson !! this is why i don't use cliche words or techniques when i help people train .. IMO the word ' Attention ' is foolish ... the lesson the dog tells me it has learned [ if i am reading your post as to what you mean] is : ' i will atttend to the object , and if that means looking at you i will " .. you have treated ' motivation [ which IMO is not true motivation training aside from what some of these gurus say] for the object and not a  performance of unsion . what do i mean : as a pup , 8 weeks , i condition the pup to always be , not in attention , BUT ATTENTIVE to me ... i get to a point such that if i'm holding  food , toy , bite tug anywhere the dog will still be atternding to me - even as a pup .. this i already see at 16 to 20 weeks .. even in the presence of other dogs .. same .. the dog looks to me literally and figurtatively .. i will hold food , toy away from me.- out of sight too , doesn't matter - away from me is away from me ..  .. the dog wants it .. but only by attending to me it gets what it wants or needs.. [ i will forego how i teach this for now].. your dog has not learned IMO to attend to YOU .. maybe it  loosk at you when you have sonething it needs , but it does not attend to you ... no different than holding a lollipop in front of a baby and think that it is paying attention to you .. take away that lollipop and now you really have lost the youngster ! instead of teaching in youth .. when i want you to pay attention to me , irregardles .. then you better  pay heed and attend to me  !! when i am talking to you , young one .. keep your mind on me,   you attend to me  &  i don't expect you to be day dreaming , irregadless if  i have a lollipop or not or whatever is going on around you !! .. get it little one !! i hope i am enunciating the concept to you .. this is what you have not taught your dog and what it has not learned. !! Just the oppoiste .. if a toy is there , then my mind ison you / the toy  , if there is no toy there , then my mind is on different thngs . now this is where i disagree with DON .. IMO you should not have to fool the dog that the toy is still present...IMO - this is not the RELATIONSHIP [ for psort too] i want .. IMO with my dogs , as explained, i don't care if the dog thinks the toy is present or not ... the dog has been taught in the absence of the toy .. dog you look toward me for your needs in life and your direction [ literally and firguratively] my advice .. go back and teach this concept to your dog ..

AP, apparently you did not read what I wrote. I said I can stick the ball in his face and it shouldn't matter. And what is the difference between "attend" and "attention"?

Don .. there is a qualitative and a quantative difference .. which i prefer not to get into as a seminar here .. it is analogous to the differential of Dominating your dog as opposed to having dominion over a dog .. they sound the same but they are not !!  yes ,.,,, you did say put the ball in the dog's face .. BUT .. that is the point .. the dog shouldn't have to believe where or where not the ball is - when it gets a reward and when not !!..iif you put a ball in the dog's FACE and you are going through a routine .. the dog will anticipate that reward ..no it shouldn't matter ... but some people not having taught the dog correctly  , as soon as the  dog sees the ball realizes a reward is immenent.. it may still look at you , not at the ball .. but there is a very very thin line here... ? is the dog attending to you in expectation of  reward having  seen the ball or is the dog attending to you irregadless of the sight or absecne of the ball ..THAT is thge point i am trying to convey !! and it does make a difference... not only in the heel .. but this concept will transcend as to how the dog will percieve you and other exerecises in the future ..  when we use a leash , a toy ,  food .. they are not mere motivation tools ...THEY CAN and do BECOME BRIBES ... most people IMO miss the point .. they are tools , not instruments of control , not bribes .. but instruments in order that we may teach and in order that we can better precisely communicate to the dog .. this is the bull most people teach .. MOTIVATION ... [ TRUE motivation .. that is i repeat . True Motivation does not work in that mere fashion ..] ..  TRUE MOTIVATION -- the dog will work in the absence as well as the presence of [ anticipation of ] a reward. BTW - if you put a ball in the dogs face it matters in the sense that if you have used a ball as a reward , then the dog comes to anticipate the ball reward ... THAT IMO is the problem , Certain behaviors will extiguish on their own [ defense does not extinguish ].. when the reward is no longer offered/ anticipated  then behaviors will extinguish .. I want my dog to realize it is our synergy together , our relationship that underlies what we do .. no different than a pack of dogs or wolves ... they work in unison to achieve a mutual beneficial goal .. they look to the alpha for direction/ their mindset is not wil i get a rewrd from him or not !! .. they don't look to see if the alpha has dinner in it's mouth ... if they fail on a hunt or a killl , ie no reward .. does one of the pack members say , ' naw .. i decide not to go on the hunt next time , there was nothing in it for me the last time ?? No .. they wouldn't survive.. IMO .. i never never never prompt , ASK the dog for attention ... NEVER .. it is the dogs responsibilty .. that is it's RESPONSIBILITYto be attentive to my direction .. my responsibility is to cultivate that type of relationship ... -- pack member , it is  that members  responsibility to watch the alpha , or the one that is rounding up the game - they attend to the others and when action is required to , act.. anticpation of rewrd or not

REGARDLESS, you still didn't read my post. When I said hide it, I meant stick it out of sight so the dog learns to work without it's presence. Like I said in the "C'mon" thread, stop telling people how they are wrong without giving an alternative. I can walk through a museum all day long and tell you what I don't like about the paintings. That doesn't make me an artist. Please teach us. How do you get this attention? Oops, I should have said, how do you get the dog to attend to you? I stated one way, so please edumicate me. "Irregardles" of whether you want to or not.