Need ob advice.... - Page 2

Well, I took RLHAR's advice with "magic bucket" and wow, what a difference. It took him all of 5 minutes to figure out what I was asking, so from there we'll add distance and eventually hide it. Thankfully, it was not 20 steps back, just a few. :) I couldn't find a bucket, so we used a large food bowl instead.

ALPHAPUP, how do you go about getting the attention and focus that you want for a trial without using some other type of reward to occasionally mark the behaviors (other then voice?)?

Thank you Don, I definately agree that he does not connect focus with "heel". He is where he's supposed to be, just without the focus I want.

Thank you all,
Melissa

Don .. my first post was NOT in regards to you or what you do .. simply - making comment, shared thought /  point ..' the dog does what it is taught to do'  ..  i don't care about commenting on people's techniques .. i believe there is no Right / Wrong .. .. i don't care how peoplechoose to  train ... But I do give another perspective .. maybe something to contemplate .. and i could care otherewise if they agree/ disagree. not my concearn .. .. simply a shared thought !! .. Don -- you think because a dog does not see something , or sees you hide it .. that  means it doesn't know it's there ?? reminds me of those brainheads that advocate ' throw chains " .. - i tell people that work with me .. : don't underestimate the ability of a canine- and don't insult it's intelligence /instincts   !! the first time you throw that chain .. the dog figures out who and from where that chain came from ...ok here comes the critism .. -- hello .. the dog can scent 20 feet down in snow ... don't you think your scent was on the chain ?? now - he can't figureit out ./ so you hide a ball in your hat .. laughable .. the dog doesn't know you have it ?/ another point .. Don -you write " the dog hasn't learned that when you say heel , it doesn't realize watching you /focus is a part of it ' ... you missed my point .. [ which i wasn't talking about you anyway ] the point : the attending , attention , focus .. whatever you want to say .. comes first and the heel is an integral part of that !! THAT/ and the RELATIONSHIP  is my point and that what i was trying to , so poorly , trying to share with other people .. IMO , that is what eveything is predicated on ...  every single exercise  comes from the fact that the dog is connect with me , everything from there on in , is just a communcation as to what is expected and the PERMISSION to do it.. the dog attends to me .. it is given permission to come to me , it is given permission to walk next to me .. it is given permission to bite !! again i was commentating poster with his/her dog in the heel ..  as i said .. i don't care how anyone views what i write , i am not looking to compare .. if something works .. i am happy for someone ,, great they don't need th read my posts.. .. everybody can and should think for themselves , nor do i care what others choose to do or have done .. i'm not their training director.. delete what i state and forget it if it is of no value to you ..

melissa .. again that is one of my points .. it's not simply about ' attention' / 'focus' ... will do my best here .. i am not always a pro sharing ideas ..like i see in AKC .. people in those classes work the dogs and i hear them say ' watch me , watch me'... and with some dogs .. what happens .. the owners actually are training them to watch them ... when  and .. only when they hear ' watch me'  .. i cannot give a whole seminar here .. .. i give myself a headache from my posts !! i want people to undersand the mind of a canine .. some fundamentals : they do eveything with purposeness , they are social by nature , they are intsincutal  , meaning they do things that will contribute to their survival .. etc etc. My biggest pet peeve , all sports and Sch as well ,  is a way of life .. each in a symbiotic relationship .. Everything is in general cultivated by your relationship and that starts at the precise moment you and your dog's eyes meet .. EACH offering to the other their needs ..like any relationship that needs to work - A GIVE and TAKE ..  there is NO one WAY - BUT A MULTITUDE OF WAYS .. each depends on the two involved .. ..  in essencve NO DIFFERENT than a relationship between two humans .. Rhetorically : how is it that a father can have a young son stand in his face , hemming  and hawing  about wanting  to play ball , how is it that a mom can have a daughter haunt her about wanting to bake cookies ?? did the father say : oh i am going to do this and i am going to do that because someday i want my son to present to me , to  look at me  ,to  bug me and push me to play ball ?? Attending IMO is more than just a dog looking at you ..It's a function , dynamic at that , of the relationship .. SO -- how does that come about ?? ..... when it comes to our dogs ...-- we get brain farts and don't have an answer  >>>> for the record .. i could give you a whole semester on learning theory and development .. i could verse you in : classical Pavlonian  conditioning , operant conditioning [ which is a misnomer because there are really two types / entities to that elarning ] and the use of markers and non-markers , primary , secodary , tertairy reinforcers , conditioned vs unconditioned responses, apiring of stimuli  etc ad nauseum ..  .... but that is all you folks would learn .. academics .. I want you to learn how to build a relationship with your dog[ to get your results]  .. as stated everything is a manifestation of that .. how does a teacher get a class to pay attention , to get the students to do what it needs what she wants them to do & what they need to do ?? -- [ i hate the word training] - how does she get the students to learn what and how she wants and then be able to test them [ a trial ]. everyday of your life is a trial with your and your dog !! i tell people that i had in my class : if your dog does not want to come to you .. go home and be ashamed of yourselves.. IMO .. if your dog can't take it's eyes off you then shame  .. So .. as humans .. we can't figure out how to be the apple of our childrens'  /our dogs eye?? a father can't figure how to have his son always hanging on the back of his neck , wanting to do .. that is attending and not mere attention ! does everything have to be , i do it this way ?? so  in reality .. i am asked here : HOW ?? my question is .. with the Right Relationship .. how could one not ..

Alphapup,
Nero and I have a good relationship. He does not blow me off while off leash (even on 3000 acre farm) though he knows he easily could. All of his excersises are sharp, save for the heel. It is sharp BUT he is looking out for whatever may be around, which I understand. An unwavering focus is not natural, but something we want when we trial. I am new to Sch trials and have always trained K9s. We don't need that kind of focus and it would be rather silly for the dog to be staring up at you rather then watching his surroundings. Nero has had some police training, so it may be my fault that his focus is less then stellar. I have also done AKC obedience, placing well with the hot dog spitting method. I don't want to spit hot dogs and his food drive is much lower then his ball drive anyways.

I'm just going to keep on plugging away. I don't train with a club so look to the internet for occasional advice. I know that I will eventually need to go to the club for other training, but for now we're not doing half bad.

Thank you all again,
Melissa

melbe .. i understand .. this is frequent .. someone comes by a dog  with a experience from the past .. -- ok for you ,... this is what i would do [ just one tact] stand still with your dog at heel .. this could take a while .. dog looks up at you immediately with your right leg [ not your left ] take one step forward encourage your dog then , act like it is the biggest occurance in the world .. one step .. why take a second with out your dog looking at you ?? [ as youi get what you want with 1 step .. you can add 2, thewn 3 then 4 etc etc]now ask yourself .. what is it that your dog direly  needs ?? dinner , a toy , your interaction , a game of frisbee , to hop in your car and go for a ride?? water ??  to play tug/bite  ?? get the picture ..doesn't have to an item .. it's what the dog needs and what will cement your relationship...  not any 1 thing .. everything !! in every aspect of your life .. is this  the behavior you want .. the dog needs a reason to do it- a purpose . .. give him a reason .. be 100% consistent.. as a pup .. the dog offers the behavior that i want [ notice i don't ask ... i let the pup offer .. ] . you want your dog to look at you .. so evey aspect of life .. he must look to you .. in order to get in the car .. ooops car door doesn't  open .. then- up the ante ..  .. car door opens you move without being told , oops the car door closes .. the dog will figure it out .... they deductive reason " IF this -Then that " .. I look then we go , i don't look we don't move ..  i stay , i look ...ok mom , i'm doing it .. this is what you want ... the car door opens .. before you know it , he will be looking at you waitng for the car door to open - you won't have to ask .. ... dinner time .. did you eve see a dog look up at you , follow you around just to feed them dinner , it's .like ' c'mon mom feed me , feed me '.. as i stated everything , pup wants out of the crate , silence , calm and attne to me .. behavior offered , door opens !! getting back to heel .. develop ... dog wants to move .. it's c'mon mom i'm looking , i'm looking let's get  going  . and the dog goes .. when ,, when you allow it to .. NOT because you told it to - in the sense of ' command' .. as i described .. if you connect with ypur dog .. your dog should want to do ..  Now .. contrary to what people think .. dog's don't forget what they learned BUT they can learn to do new things .. dogs are never to old to learn , unless senile !! BTW -- i agree with you .. a dog looking up in your face is unatrural, so much so, IMO a very very foolish requirement !! they probably think we are idiots fopr wanting to walk that way ...i should add i have three  ways of walking with my dog ... a free walk ... a walk at heel but casual .. and if i desire a walk , as they say in Sch , 'in -drive w faces locked ..'... hope this helps .. qualified .. this onwe way .. i'm not going to argue godd , better, best , right , wrong .. again something to just plain 'ol think about .. not a teachnique ,, a way to live with your dog

Alphapup,
Besides the heel, he is always focused. For example, in the morning when he gets his raw, I first tell him to back up, then toss the raw stuff on the ground for him. He will not budge, eyes glued to mine for as long as I stand there. I tell him "ok", he grabs the raw and that's that. The only thing I asked of him was "back" he did the rest on his own, so I added the ok command because he would just sit there drooling.

I think I'll toss a few different "techniques" around and see which one works the best for us.

Great ideas :)

Melissa

Alphapup,
Did I understand your post correctly? Are you talking about establishing a relationship with your dog so the dog does what you ask him for, just because you ask him and expect him to perform, and not for the prize? The trainer I worked with (ex Norwegian Army and Search & Rescue GSD trainer) believed in handler-dog relationship only. He always compared the dogs that do it for the handler (will work as long as it is necessary) and dogs trained with “treats/toys” that work only until the treat/toy has a value to them.

He was doing treat and clicker training for those who wanted it, but with my dog he said you have to do it the “old way” – a lot like “nothing in life is for free” technique. It worked miracles for me as with my girl not even beef roast treats in my hand would keep her focused on what I wanted her to do (if she had different plans…). When I learned how to be the alpha bitch and how to communicate my expectations, we both become much happier and more confident. We really trust each other and we’ve got each other’s back. It took a lot of learning and work on my side, but I think it was worth it for both of us.

Melissa,

I'm glad it was able to provide you some results.  Tools in the ole toolbox, no two dog will ever respond the same way to the same training.

Niesia ,,, that is what i call a relationship ..i am impressed .. great for you ** .......Niesia -  Hmm .. do you think most owners would like to feel that they are more important to their dog than.... a piece of Roast Beef ??   i can share with you a pup at 12 weeks old will already learn to stay pinned onto me irregardless of 10 other dogs around a room / roast beef in my hand .. i am glad there is another in that repsect.. HMMMMM, how many other owners would like to be more important to their dog than a pieceof.. roast beef .. ..AHG !! .. what would i know .. anyway

Well this thread was focused on SchH obedience, not military or S&R, like your trainer. If I had a military, PSD, PPD, S&R, or just a pet, yeah I would train differently. I would like to see what scores this dog gets in a trial. I think everyone on here knows that dogs can be trained without the reward of a toy or treat, but they look like they are trained without a toy or a treat. Your heeling will look flat, the retieves will be slow, the send out will be, well...I don't even know! And to say that is the "NILF" method, what isn't free? Compulsion? Compulsion is always free. What are you gonna hold back that isn't free, an "atta boy"? Dogs are much more motivated by a toy or a treat, why wouldn't you use it in sport? Sure, for a different venue I don't care if he looks like a snail. I don't care how much you "teach your dog to love you", your dog will not bond with you more than going out and having fun with a tug or a ball on a rope.