The Sphynx Down? - Page 1

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by Vixen on 14 April 2011 - 15:04

I realise most of you use the command "Platz" - but may I ask how do you help your dogs define a sphynx position on the move, during heelwork, as opposed to a general relaxed Down?

For instance, do you give a separate command?

Do you maybe always teach a sphynx down - even in the relaxed Stays?

Or like me do you teach the Sphynx Down while static, and gradually include the position in precise heelwork?  (Then any other time apart from heelwork the Down would be a relaxed drop).

Or perhaps you apply something different?


Vixen

by ALPHAPUP on 14 April 2011 - 21:04

vixen .. i can share with you what i do in that respect .. i teach  ' platz' , a sphynx down . that is an absolute request requiring an immediate response . to me there is no such word as stay . an absolute is an absolute until released fromally verbally or non-verbally OR unless i make aother request , such as ' vorous,[ go out]. now what is implied is: the dog learns that a sphynx down position leaves him to think that there will be soon to follow , another request requiring motion, such a 'fass' , vorous' etc. .in your question - if i desire the dog to be under my direction such that there will be a long down .i leave the dog with my right foot to the side , not a forward step .. the first step is an oblique or to the outside which is a cue for the dog to remain. [ right foot forward is ALWAYS the cue for dog  to fuss/heel]. so agai ;platz" ,. i move to the right , implied stay as the dog is underplatz and he learns that my movment isn't a heel . now as for the dog being able to move to it's side in the down  being that it is now a 'long down ', AS i moive to the right i state, " REST". ------------ this is my way in Ring you can tell the dog to PLATZ & stay as you leave ,.  for me there is nosuch thing as 'stay' , so instead i cue the dog with the word " rest "or " relax" , instead of commanding ' stay' .. "meaning hold your down but you can relax" . this allows the dog to reamin down , move out of 'sphynx' relax and hold it's position implace. in the house now , if i want the dog to down but on it's own accord , i simnply say something informal as ," go park it' or go lie down [ in work i use geman , french or italian language. sometimes with all in the same dog , one language is fromal , the others informal requests ]

by Vixen on 14 April 2011 - 23:04

Hello Alphapup,  Thank you for sharing this, which I found really interesting.  Particularly as you train the sphynx Down from the beginning, with this being the concentrated focus.

I hope I can reply to this adequately - Would you agree that from the start everything is taught like black and white, so as to be perfectly clear to a novice dog, and eventually able to work with a dog in 'grey' areas when they understand more and are experienced.  Therefore, (and more so because I teach) the Stay and Wait command are used.  So for instance whether the command of Sit or Down, an additional "Stay" will be used if the Owner is moving away but will return before the dog is allowed to move.  The added "Wait" expresses for the dog to be prepared for movement, i.e. Recall, Retrieve etc.  Now I use these added commands to give the dog further information to learn and understand - so that when told "Sit, Stay" he will be quite relaxed observing the knowledge that nothing further will be required until the Owner returns to his side.  Upon "Sit, Wait" he will be focussing and ready for the next directed movement.  (The 'grey' area I mentioned, is whereby I will in less formal situations just use a "Sit" or "Down" which the dog will automatically comply with).  So the added command is to help and give the dog further knowledge of our forward planned interaction.

Having said the above, I fully understand and agree with your training of the these commands and your reasons.  It is just interesting hearing an alternative reasoning.

I very much like the idea of starting immediately and consistently with a sphynx Down, allowing the relaxed position on long stays or informally away from training.  This makes a good deal of sense.  However, based on teaching this exercise from a general view point, it is far easier (and natural) for a dog to lay down in the relaxed position, and novice Owners find this less complicated and natural to teach their dog to perform.  Therefore, when progressing we concentrate on teaching the sphynx Down during formal heelwork.  Interesting that with the dog on our left-hand side, we step off with the dog on our left foot, and when leaving the dog, we go on our right foot.  I should imagine that you did need initially to tip the dog's rump to the side as you said "Rest" or "Relax" in order for him to understand the action.

Informally at home I initially say; "Settle Down" for the dogs to lay down themselves, and then eventually this becomes just plain "Settle".  So that if they should be told "Down" it means on the spot. 

Useful too using a change of language to indicate whether formal or informal.

Thank you again for sharing your individual method, which I completely understand and appreciate.  Hope you find it interesting as I do, sharing our variable ideas.


Regards and Respect,
Vixen

by ALPHAPUP on 15 April 2011 - 13:04

vixen ... for the record .. let's agree : there is NO [one] WAY .. for your reference ... i don't have to tip the dog's side for it to understand it may side off on the long platz.. [ we can converse about that later ]  .. the major point i wast to share with viewwrs of the forum is : interacting with the dog is about relationship and communicating ! that's it in a nutshell. communicating verbally and non-verbally , which whether we realize it or not always must be congruent  and consistent [verbally , non-verbally]. So .. IMO ,  i never ever ever say [ meant formally ] "stay".  not just as down is down , sit is sit .. that is one dimension - the other dimension is : in interacting with my dogs , my communication is such that .. i never ever implant or have the thought appear in their mind to move from a position . therefore if i go away it is not a thought in their mind to anticipate , or, shall i go to dad , or should i go get what i need etc.  ----  the first time ... the very very first time i even think of leaving a dog in a position , i make sure they have the thought: " i don't need to move because dad will be right back and my needs will be met" .. In other words .. they realize that they have no reason/motivation to break a position . again .. this is my job [ to communicatee] that they have that  mindset , that  thought in this respect. So , holding a posiition goes beyond the dog ' just paying heed to a command' .. it becomes what the dog has learned , understands , part of what it it is .. part of it's expectations of itself , .... when a dog understands by my communication that there is no need for it  to move .. there becomes no need to anticipate .. therefore .. whenever i leave a dog , until it is proofed and 1000 x generalized , i always , always , always go back to the dog from having left .. they are to believe i will always return to them , so they await my return .. LATER i can teach a dog to discriminate .. no different for example :  10 dogs i have taught this to in pack .. at the begining , you do not jump on my bed .... later when my communication and rules are learned inside out .. i can change the context to : you may come on the bed , when you have my permission .. without my permission and invitation you do not even look to go onto the bed.. Dogs are context specific learners - once they learn a specific behavior in a context then you can change the context , as they understand, and shape new behavior [ the grey are you refer too ]. . BTW .. i do not ever move a left foot as a cue to my dog. again .. personally , in trial or fromal exercised .. i always , always use the right leg signifying expected movement or expected position holding. it's the way i use my right leg. same as using an open hand as opposed to a closed hand for a cue . i have trrained , literally with a shift of my eyes or a blink of my eyes to perfrom .oh yes .. my personal ortection dog .. he wouldknow by the way i changed my eye set to suspect and hold someone !! BTW ..is not this the way a pack of dogs communicate , by their eyes ?? sometimes ., it is what is not verbally ated that is more important .. BTW i can train all of Schutzhund, every aspect ,  , without ever uttering a word to a dog ..  so now , with these ides you mayu incorporate them [ or not ] in what you , yourselves do .. dogs are all aboutm relationship and communicazting [ not IMO training "like robots" ]

jc.carroll

by jc.carroll on 15 April 2011 - 13:04

I train the "sphynx down", then for casual application use a follow-up command to tell them they can relax and change position, as long as they don't move from that spot.

by Vixen on 15 April 2011 - 14:04

Alphapup, I think our outlook is possibly very similar, that we focus on the natural pack mentality in training with dogs.  With differences (as would be expected from our personal experiences).  People do talk too much giving unnecessary verbal.  It is also quite common that following a formal training session, Owners make a big game of excitement when finished.  I am sure this is fine and works very well with many people, but I don't - I do not wish to convey to my dogs that working with me is a drudge, and a celebration when completed.  Quite the opposite I want them to feel good at interacting one-to-one with me.  In fact guidance and interaction never actually does finish ..... one is formal attention and the other just continues informally.  A dog always needs to know that you are aware, and capable of your leadership role.

Novice Owners need to be built up in understanding their own abilities with their dogs.  Although dogs are technically very straight-forward, they are equally complex in their complete focussed understanding of pack interaction.  Therefore, it is something that is gradually learned and understood by my clients.  They progress as they gain in confidence by entering the fascinating mind of canines. 

Enjoyed this discussion with you.

Regards,
Vixen

by ALPHAPUP on 15 April 2011 - 14:04

Vixen .. "DITTO" !! inreference to " drudge and .. celebration when completed" ... Correctly so !! SO .. something for readers to contemplate : why is it that , in sports the dog is tasken to the field , ok handler/dog sets up and in protection work , agitation immediately begins ??.[ you put into the dog's mind when it hits a field it gets a bite , that is the expection you will have , dog hits the field , it looks for the bite ]..  BTW , this is how 20 + years ago i leanred Schutzhund .. now my mindset is different!! . WHY ?? --    as you alluded to .. the joy and the celebration is in the act of interacting [ working ] with the dog and the dog working with me. THAT is the celebration!!! that is where our fulfillment lies !!! .. so after foundation ,  ie the dog hasd learned the skills .. i do not implant in the dog's mind when he walks onto the field the bite or the party begins .. IMO the dog is bought onto the field because the session is about an 'US' or 'WE'. ----  we may walk .. or we may be in a fuss , the agitator can be on a field , a street , with or without sleeve, it is irrelevent .. BUT "WE" come first .. i will circle my dog around a helper dressing in bite suite . or sleeve and agitation .. , everything up to a point is irrelevent. i want relationship and self control in our togetherness. AND ...THIS has nothing to do with the stupid phrase of " killing drive"   > beleive me if a dog wants to bite and engage/ takes pleasure in the game [ or the seriousness  too] ,  .. it will !!  [ if not ,  perhaps you are trying to make the dog what it is not !!]. again "WE" are our centerpoint. the dog gets to bite .....' when i give it permission to ' when i decide we go into the game , the batle , the gist..  there is no hype before and ,as you state afterwards .. pure joy is working/ playing together , the helper merely joins in .. BTW same theory with my personal protection dog .. i don't care if someone is spouting off .. it is a "we " concerted effort. not that my dog is suspicious and chooses to press a green light to take someone out. [unless i have trained a automatic preconditioned response that negates a cue/command].everybody is so intersted in the dog performing but how much attention is given the the other side of the equation ,'the handler' ??,yes --i learn a lot from ny 10 , once 13, GSDs in my home , aside from me ... PASCK and survival is 'MOST IMPORTANT .. everything is relationship [ pack ] and all is communicating and ensuring survival ! Surviaval relies on 100% awareness and synergy topgether. psoters talk about 'prey ' defense' etc etc.. but what is thew meaning of it all ?? survival !! Not abvout teaching a so called exercise .. as stated a thousand tim es Sport Sch , Ring .. is a way of life .. and Life !!!

ziegenfarm

by ziegenfarm on 15 April 2011 - 17:04

just a word about structure.  how the dog is put together has something to do with their natural position in a down.  now, that is not to say that you can't train a dog to a different fashion.  i am going to speak in general terms here.  i know there are always exceptions, but generally speaking:
larger dogs, such as showline german shepherds, may "walk in to" a platz or may sitz first and then go down into a platz.  often, a larger dog will cock off to one side and not maintain the "sphinx" platz - as you call it.  if that is the case, it is probably because the dog is uncomfortable in that position.
malinois and dutch shepherds, being smaller framed and a bit more agile, tend to "fold-up" like a folding table or folding chair.  they will stop and then fold backward into what you call the "sphinx" platz.  it is all very fast and a seamless motion.  additionally, they seem much more comfortable in this position and can maintain it for long periods of time.
if you want to train the "sphinx" platz, you will need to teach your dog to "back in to it."  to "fold up."  allowing the dog to "walk into" it or to sit first will not produce the effect you are looking for.  don't forget praise and rewards for a job well done.  ;)
pjp

Mindhunt

by Mindhunt on 17 April 2011 - 22:04

I use a seperate command for the "platz" for the 'spinx down (your words)' and "hin lagen" (ok my german spelling sucks even if it was my first language) for the relaxed down, which means get up, get comfortable but don't leave the area (about a foot radius of the body).  This works best for my pups.  Platz is for the don't-move from your down. 





 


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