CONCERNING PROTECTION TRAINING - Page 2

Bob & duke, good posts.  The difference for me, is obedience helps build the bond prior to bitework.  Bitework can too, but obedience keeps them less amped-up in the brain, clearer of mind, which I feel is best, especially in the case of a low-threshold/high-drive dog.  I'm in no hurry to do bitework, but a majority fall within the 8 to 12 month range before I begin by emphasizing it as a "fun and increasingly challenging game".  All the while reading and holding consideration for what is age/maturity and training-stage appropriate for each individual dog.  If the dog has strong inherited bitework talent and capability, it will still be there later on, and anything done early is more of an imprinting opportunity, and put away until such time is best to build on that.

duke1965...maybe we're talking about the same thing,just argueing a point from different prospectives..i agree with you,there's quite a bit a pup can learn prior to even realizing he has teeth...as to who does "oldskool yank/crank"...you'd be surprized...a lot of it is done by well meaning but uninformed handler/owners.....i've seen it frequently.it may very well be that strength of temprement will shine thru regardless,i just like to "hedge my bet"with younger dogs,that's just my feelings on working dogs from the selections available to us today

he daryll , long time no see/hear

To be clear to the OP, even trainers that advocate WAITING to start obedience until a good foundation in bitework has been established, still train obedience.
Anyone who is advocating that a dog NEVER be obedience trained is a fool.  The distinction has to be made between *waiting*, and never training, which it seemed the OP was under the impression was done.

BTW .. i forgot to add .. and not in reply to BOB Mck ..but to adddress  this concept of " capping drive" another foolish , mis conception-  who knows where in the world that terminology came from !!  either the dog has the desire or motivation in it's heart to do the work or not ... that capping the drive bit just tells me the dog has not learned self-control and thereby the handler now has to step in and [ most often physically assert himself] control the dog. that tells me that the handler failed , not the dog , the hanlder failed to teach appropriately  and c orectly .. YOU MADE the DOG WHAT IT IS .. the dog is a reflection of what YOU taught !!. then you blame the dog for becoming hectic, overstimulated, frantic , blowing off your commands  etc etc. . 90% of the time it is the people involved that create the problems .. 90%..you made the dog get out of hand and then yolu say " cap the drive' .. now i know some of the MOST leading people/ GURUS  in the USA discuss this concept.. BUT i will tell you : they don't have a clue -- the ignorant teaching the less knowledgable , IMO !!!! i can teach someone to kill in the flick of a finger but that does not mean they go around knockinmg everyone's block off .. they have been taught respect , manners, self control of thoughts , emotions & action . if you teach the dog to bite ,to  do someone in through combat  , or something else .. as much responsibility goes in teaching that  dog to controll itself . AND i mean CONTROL ITSELF !!if you have an out of control dog , a fired up dog .. if you cannot have the dog control it's insticnts and itself you have done a an injustice to that dog [ and yourself]. s friend of mine shoed off once.. he sent his dog on another friend of mine.. ther wife said the the handler , get your dog under control. the handler chuckled as the dog continued. my friend's wife got a frying pan , hit the dog over the head with it and said " sir , now your dog is under control [ and i guess capped now] !!'. with skill comes resposibility .. a dog not " capped [ in your stupid terminology ] " is irresposible !!

what is crank & yank?

"what is crank & yank?"

Compulsion.

wrong, Keith

Compulsion is not yank & crank. Yanking & cranking is the unecessary force on the leash/collar to get the dog what you want them to do without the dog understanding the exercise.

Compulsion is pressure applied at the right time with tools or without any to teach an excercise or to reinforce one.

And no, I dont rely this to the Koehler method.

Interesting post, Alpha.  My former TD purposely discouraged me once from using that term, that it made no sense.

No, it is not wrong.  "Yanking and cranking" refers directly to the use of compulsion in training.   Typically, early obedience work is purely motivational and avoids any use of compulsion.