CONCERNING PROTECTION TRAINING - Page 3

daryl .. your TD   at least knows somethingabout teaching dogs  and taught you well . i have known people that went to the WUSV & use that expression . complained they got points off  OB because they said the dog was in to much drive .  the way to solve that problem was ,  they had to " cap the drive"...  now a days ' .. they still don't have a clue. my hat off to you and your TD - your both prudent.

THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR COMMENTS. I APPRECIATE WHAT EVERYONE POSTED.

i would like to say a word about compulsion.  the word itself has been associated with heavy-handed and brutal training practices.  that is unfortunate.  compulsion need not be what some people have made it.  compulsion can be (and is for some folks) nothing more than a reenforcement to prevent the dog from making an error or a physical tool to help a dog understand a command.  one very mild example of compulsion is in training a puppy to sit.  we tell the puppy to sit and at the same time run our hand down his back and push his rump to the ground.  this is compulsion.  we have forced the pup to sit, but at the same time we have shown him what is expected and helped him to understand what sit is.  i like to think of compulsion as a physical form of communication; a teaching aid, not abuse or punishment.
pjp

ziegenfarm ,that way of teaching a puppy to sit is also oldschool , and not used anymore by most toptrainers today

again .. confusion arises from differentials in defintions.. Zieger .. what you are describing is , in behavioral terms and learning , is called modelling,,, you mold the behavior  .. yes at times you do not even have to push on the rear end of a dog to model it - i.e. manually /physically guide the dog into a position . simply taking your index finger and lighlty sliding it down the back is suffice to have some dogs reflexly sit , OR you can lightly tap the dog under the butt , behind the uppe leg to have a feflex action to sit .. whether modelling or shaping behavior with e./g food .. neither technique is wrong.. every dog is different and there are a multitudes of avenues to communicate what you want the dog to understand..  Now compulsion ... we can see that it means different things on this post to different people.. but in academic terms .. you can have a positive negative reinforcement , such as a light pop using a leash and a collar , or a whisper of "no" , both are positive- negatives ... then  one can use a negative -negative to interact with the dog . a negative -negative would be using a choke chain and leash and give such a correction that dog is literally taken off the ground , or one uses an eletric collar and shocks the hell out of the dog... again in training i stay away from ill-defined or cliche expressions .. best to state exactly what is done.. that way there is no confusion and stop worrying about vague definitions. BTW .. in regatrds to compulsion .. lest not forget.. one's mouth can be exraordinarilty negative .. verbal abuse and verbal overly dominating the dog[ a negative way to have a dog comply] .. start there and then think about the other tools / techniques that are used .as a rule .. don't treat thew dogh .. the way you wouldn't to be treated [within reason].

alpha , im talking about teaching sit ,  down , sit in fronf etc , off leash , without touching the dog at all , can be done from 8 weeks of age ,or even sooner , so no pressure there , same goes for preybiting , but if you want a PPD , you dont want a preymonster , and defence , or civilbiting is not smart to start on a young dog , so still obedience first

duke .. i understand .. i train no collar or leash .. my last post was merely saying that even if one does use a leash or hands that does not always imlpy compulsion .. just depends on what you do , how one uses a leash .. and because one uses a leash .. that does not always imply true obedience is undertaken .. not sure what you are commenting on ?? NOW there is a lot of confusion out there in sports : all pups should be taught MANNERS .. ALL pups no matter what endeavor they will follow. SCH , PPD , Agility , S&R .. ALL pups are to be mannered . Obedience is not the same as manners.  i personally would never do obedience on any pup , and i train off leash / collar ..  but i would not use the terminology 'obedience' in teaching a pup !! --- i will state i would not do civil work with a pup , [ i think we both understand that ] --- even that pup should learn it does not go around biting people. - i agree in that aspect :  it is also to learn manners, to respect people  and to have self control ..as stated that is not Obedience. the subtelty is how  that is taught .. Obedience is a different concept I will elaborate on another time. Compulsion is a whole concept that i see on this forum is very very misunderstood too in the dog world  

" Compulsion is a whole concept that i see on this forum is very very misunderstood too in the dog world ."

I agree.  There are, of course, various levels of compulsion that may or may not be appropriate for a given situation but it is what it is.

I AM LEARNING AND TAKING IN SO MUCH FROM YOU GUYS. THANKS SO MUCH FOR POSTING!!

Ob training in my opinion should be  started as a pup, like some have said they don't have to do military turns, or heal right under your feet. But the purpose of protection is to have the dog be obedient enough to go any where you go. This all should be done at a early age. I personally don't like alot of sleeve work on pups. I use a old charhart coat until they get where they bite so hard I can't stand it then don't do much bite work until they are ready to be pressured into defence. I believe protection dogs shoul be civil and bite for real, not game. I also believe if ob weakens a dogs heart, it never was strong enough to begin with. My opinion
Hank