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by steve1 on 30 April 2011 - 05:04
I do not know what some here are on about. No obed before protection where did you Guys learn that from.
And where do you get this Yank and Crank from, you Guys still doing that where you are if so you have not moved on much. that was way back when those terms were used.
A pup or young dog learns its Obed from 8 weeks old. A young Pup or dog learns protection from weeks old, It is all there in the Play of the Pup and it is further developed as it grows, There is no one bit of the other it is quite simply a balance of Two
Before anyone starts, Lets just say that is the way the very best Handlers over here in Belgium do it and have done for years and years,
OBED is the Key at least in the sport of Sch for without it no matter What Bite a dog many have it is doomed to fail simply it will lose to many points. Now if you want to train a dog for anything else like a P P Dog or Police dog then that i cannot say but i am referring to the Sport side.
and the term Yank and Crank is simply using force when the subject does not know what is expected of it in the first place, Once the dog really knows then does not do it, then a good correction can be given.
Steve1
And where do you get this Yank and Crank from, you Guys still doing that where you are if so you have not moved on much. that was way back when those terms were used.
A pup or young dog learns its Obed from 8 weeks old. A young Pup or dog learns protection from weeks old, It is all there in the Play of the Pup and it is further developed as it grows, There is no one bit of the other it is quite simply a balance of Two
Before anyone starts, Lets just say that is the way the very best Handlers over here in Belgium do it and have done for years and years,
OBED is the Key at least in the sport of Sch for without it no matter What Bite a dog many have it is doomed to fail simply it will lose to many points. Now if you want to train a dog for anything else like a P P Dog or Police dog then that i cannot say but i am referring to the Sport side.
and the term Yank and Crank is simply using force when the subject does not know what is expected of it in the first place, Once the dog really knows then does not do it, then a good correction can be given.
Steve1
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 June 2011 - 19:06
Bump for Karyn
by ALPHAPUP on 23 July 2011 - 01:07
a very big clarification .. YOU NEVER EVER EVER do Obdedience on a pup 8 , 10 , 16 weeks !! Never .. as i wrote manners is not the same as obedience ... teaching a dog you are the leader ,that can be taught - that also is not obedience. .. other things may also be taught , such as self control .. etc etc.. But not obedience . THE definition of obedience or gist : if you request an action from someone, that someone immediately executes that action without any other thought entering into that one's mind resulting in immediate action to fulfill that request. . failure to execute results in repurcussion and / enforcement by that person who made the request .. .That is the gist of Obedience. .. so one may teach a pup sit , stand , down , come .. TEACH the meanings of words , the postions , ..make associations between words and the actions . HOWEVER a puppy does at first not have any knowledge , does not have the mental , physical , emotional development to handle that pressure of forcing it when the learnoing has not taken place. . teaching is first and that takes TIME .. and just because a dog sits in your kitchen at first does not mean it has learned to sit at the grocery , the park , your work place etc. those are all different sits in the dog's mind . .. that is a different context...distractions in the midst of the request is a different context ,... as in dog lingo , the teaching must be generalized , tested to be taught true and then proofed... an 8 week , 10 week pup can start to learn but the teaching phase , proofing phase is not obedience .. the dog must be ready before you 'make it " perform ..ready meantly , physically , knowledgeable in order to enforce yourself if the dog shows blatant refusal to execute. and remember ... a mistake is not disobedience , confusion is not disobedience .. so best stated .. teaching starts at 8 10 weeks. i have taught much to my 16 week pup already ... but i am still teaching .. soon i will and enforce myself. ..again teaching is NOTthe equivalent of Obedience .. letting a dog know you are going to enforce yourself comes after .. the " enforcing " aspect is what makes it Obedience !! on the other end of the spectrum .. obedince basics should be completed by 1 year of age ..thereafter it becomes harder ..
by Mindhunt on 23 July 2011 - 07:07
We have always started out with puppy play and mix in obedience training in a fun method. My husband calls it "play training" and it is usually supportive with lots of rewarding for good behavior, we try to keep our voices calm and even when training but use our voices differently for play, with the ups and downs and goofy pitches. Our pups learn basic manners such as heel, sit, down, come, out, all in a play atmosphere. We never try to shove our dominance/alpha status down their throat, we spent time working with them and earning it just is part of the package deal, we never give up our status. We have more fun building their drive up to offset the little downer of manners in some of the pups, others weren't phased, By the time the protection and bitework start, they are raring to go and are pretty impressive. Our trainers are incredible and believe in manners and will not take a dog that does not have a firm foundation in obedience. They say that a firm foundation makes for a strong dog in all areas. I guess it depends upon what the ultimate end result of the dog's training is.....work or sport since they are two different worlds (not bashing any one)
by ALPHAPUP on 23 July 2011 - 12:07
mindhunt .. true there are different forms that teaching can take place .. play , for people also singing etc.. - doesn't always have to a formal rigid session ... i laugh when i hear people say they do 'obedience with puppies' .. how can one do obedience , ie ask a dog to do something and then enforce your rank/authority .. when thew one hjasn't even taught , oner way or anothjer , what one is asking ? .... isn't that the a stupid concept .. asking /telling someone / a dog .. to do something even before the task is learned and mastered .. .. oh ya .. numbskulls "do obedience with puppies " @!@! Again .. obedience is NOT the same a teaching a pup .. because can you assert yourself on someone and something without first haven taught ?
this is the problem ... many think you work a dog atr about 1 year of age .. they hgave the mindset that if one starts to soon the dog becomes repressewd ion instincts .. NOT TRUE .. there is again a differentiation in teaching a 8, 10 , 16 week pup not meaning you assert your will..teaching does not mean asserting your authority and therefore does not repress the dog !! manners and self control again is another differential .. and the others that advocating obedience with an 8 week pup also have the wrong notion as just explained . teaching [ in various ways] first .. then upon maturation [ and by that tiome all the lessons should be clearly taught /communicated], then follow through[ obedience] ..
how and what you teach are also different in aspects.. e.g if the sit is taguht correctly ... if you truely tap into the essence of the dog .. then at time of 'obedience' the idea is that sit has become so integral a part of the dog that it can't wait to sit .. therefore the less of a need for follow through , assertivenerss. compulsion . which brings me to another aspect regarding teaching : just becuase a dog does something asked DOES NOT MEAN the dog is OBEDIENT .. why .." ATTITUDE". COMPLIANCE is not the same as OBEDIENCE either !! and .. dog casn haropur feelings of contempt and resentment !!.. just like a youngster- they may do what you ask but not because they WANT to DO [it]!! now different people have diffferent defintions .. BUT IMO this is the gist no matter how you slice it !!
this is the problem ... many think you work a dog atr about 1 year of age .. they hgave the mindset that if one starts to soon the dog becomes repressewd ion instincts .. NOT TRUE .. there is again a differentiation in teaching a 8, 10 , 16 week pup not meaning you assert your will..teaching does not mean asserting your authority and therefore does not repress the dog !! manners and self control again is another differential .. and the others that advocating obedience with an 8 week pup also have the wrong notion as just explained . teaching [ in various ways] first .. then upon maturation [ and by that tiome all the lessons should be clearly taught /communicated], then follow through[ obedience] ..
how and what you teach are also different in aspects.. e.g if the sit is taguht correctly ... if you truely tap into the essence of the dog .. then at time of 'obedience' the idea is that sit has become so integral a part of the dog that it can't wait to sit .. therefore the less of a need for follow through , assertivenerss. compulsion . which brings me to another aspect regarding teaching : just becuase a dog does something asked DOES NOT MEAN the dog is OBEDIENT .. why .." ATTITUDE". COMPLIANCE is not the same as OBEDIENCE either !! and .. dog casn haropur feelings of contempt and resentment !!.. just like a youngster- they may do what you ask but not because they WANT to DO [it]!! now different people have diffferent defintions .. BUT IMO this is the gist no matter how you slice it !!
by steve1 on 25 July 2011 - 16:07
Getting a Puppy to sit and down are two of the easiest things to get them to learn quickly. Hektor now just under 10 weeks old Sits and Downs on command without a leash, i have had him 12 days in which to teach him these two little basic points and it was done in two times a day for 5 minutes each time, He is also coming back to me on first call when called, These are basic things to teach a puppy.
At the moment i sit on a stool he sits between my legs and i give him a treat, but only when he looks at my face,
So i started off sitting with him in between my legs and i move my arms left and right as if in a walking motion, He looked at my arms moving then he looked at my face , as soon as he looked at my face he got a treat they were in both hands so each time he looked at me he got a treat from left or right hand , Now after one week he hardly glances at the hands moving but looks to my face, So i held my hands in the air he looked at the arms in the air then to my face then he got his treat, Next it will be walking by my side getting him to look up to my face, However i will continue with the stool work and as he grows bigger a will use a chair to sit on this will continue until he is 12 months old or more and a bit after at times
Steve1
At the moment i sit on a stool he sits between my legs and i give him a treat, but only when he looks at my face,
So i started off sitting with him in between my legs and i move my arms left and right as if in a walking motion, He looked at my arms moving then he looked at my face , as soon as he looked at my face he got a treat they were in both hands so each time he looked at me he got a treat from left or right hand , Now after one week he hardly glances at the hands moving but looks to my face, So i held my hands in the air he looked at the arms in the air then to my face then he got his treat, Next it will be walking by my side getting him to look up to my face, However i will continue with the stool work and as he grows bigger a will use a chair to sit on this will continue until he is 12 months old or more and a bit after at times
Steve1
by duke1965 on 27 July 2011 - 10:07
why do you want him to whatch your face
by ALPHAPUP on 27 July 2011 - 16:07
because .. #1 reason .. if you want to control the dog ,it's thoughts .. you control it's eyes .. where the eyes go .. so do the thoughts ../ first the thought - then comes an action !! / this is a dog being attentive to you to look for you for directives / direction .. in this way you need not command a dog but merely communicate what your request is because it is looking to you not ' toward you '.. .. in that repsect ... this is why i advopcate . attention is a misnomer .. you want to create atttentiveness. *** PS .. nice job steve 1 !! and great explanation you shared with others !!
by duke1965 on 27 July 2011 - 17:07
alphapup , I understand that way of thinking , but if you want your dog to make eyecontact all the time in todays obedience you will loose many points , the handler has to have his face forward , if the dog wants to make eyecontact he will be out of position
by desert dog on 27 July 2011 - 19:07
In response to the original post, I do not want a personal protection dog of mine looking at my face for direction. i want to be looking at him while he is in the process of preventing a assult. if he has to look at me for direction in personal protection, then I have failed the dog in his preperation for his or her job. He at the same time has to be obedient to my voice. A personal protection dog as I've said many times has to be first a very clear headed dog, and not just a bite dog like you would use for cell extraction. PP dogs have to be trusted to work off leash and detect danger long before you do. Not beeing argumentative, just my opinion
Hank
Hank
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