What is a King Shepherd - Page 3

What next? Blue Shepherds? I am surptised no one has formed a new breed for them yet. Oops. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned that.

Well, rockoftheglen, I took your advice and checked out the ISSR website. It is very interesting. The first really interesting part of the ISSR website is that it makes a lot of claims about the incidence of hip dysplasia, including several charts showing a sub-10% rate of dysplasia according to (surprise!) the ISSR's own methodology of rating hips, which is presented as being equivalent to the a-stamp and OFA programs. Oddly enough, the OFA's own statistics show the Shiloh Shepherd as having a slightly higher % dysplastic than the regular GSD (20.6% vs. 19.0%), and very, very few Shilohs have been submitted to the OFA for evaluation (339 Shilohs, versus over 86,000 GSD). The "hip evaluation" section of the ISSR website is also very interesting- like the part mentioning that a poor-quality x-ray, including improper positioning, results in a "Fair" grade according to the ISSR "breed wardens". The ISSR website also claims that breeder "set her standard back to the old style VERY LARGE type shepherds". When was this old standard established, and by whom? At what point in time were vastly oversized, mostly long-coated German Shepherds the norm? The German Shepherd Dog is not an old breed, so records and pictures are pretty easily available, and if anything the "old style" shepherds were significantly smaller than the current norm. The breed founder biography/hagiography is also rather interesting, particularly the part about the conspiracy by a group of dissidents to "destroy her so they can profit from the reputation that her dogs have earned." I will leave that without comment. So, the ISSR 1) purports their "breed" to be a return to a (mythical?) old style of shepherd and 2) alleges that their "breed" has significantly lower incidence of hip dysplasia than the GSD, with no evidence to back it other than what seems to be a rather flawed proprietary hip rating method. Can you see where this would get people a bit stirred up?

Shelly Lookie here http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/ The wacko's are one step ahead! Take care, Melanie

oops sorry that wasn't a breeder, here's one: http://www.freewebs.com/aristima/sasha.htm Take care, Melanie

"Oddly enough, the OFA's own statistics show the Shiloh Shepherd as having a slightly higher % dysplastic than the regular GSD (20.6% vs. 19.0%), and very, very few Shilohs have been submitted to the OFA for evaluation (339 Shilohs, versus over 86,000 GSD)." It should be noted that of the 339 dogs shown in the OFA database, the vast majority of those dogs were produced outside of the ISSR by the so called "splinter" registries, ie: NSBR, SSBA, TSSR etc. So therefore, it would appear that those registries have produced a high indidence of dysplastic dogs that has raised the %. Can't blame the ISSR for that.

"So therefore, it would appear that those registries have produced a high indidence of dysplastic dogs that has raised the %. Can't blame the ISSR for that." Then what are their "real" numbers according to a real, widely accepted hip-rating method? And no, their own proprietary method doesn't count. The ISSR website mentions that, in their opinion, the OFA tends to give their dogs a lower hip quality rating than they feel is true, so they made their own hip rating method- which makes me suspect that the ISSR dogs weren't performing all that great on the OFA ratings. This, combined with their own admission that even an improper x-ray will result in a "fair" rating in their system, doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Boy, does all this bring back some less than happy memories... Exactly, MJ Memphis, the OFA %'s represent non-ISSR dogs, because the other registries are the ones that are actually "walking the walk" and testing their dogs. The vast majority of ISSR dogs come from the founder's kennel, and she will read their films herself--if they are ever even done. And she quite often grants a "Still Permissible" rating to dogs that she needs puppies out of. Many of these have failed OFA for hips, elbows, or both! All of my Shilohs are ISSR registered, but that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Don't get me wrong, I love my dogs, but the breed is definitely not what it is promoted to be. Just took me several years and several thousand dollars to figure that out. Don't worry, rockoftheglen, you will someday--many thousands of dollars from now, get a clue!

OFA statistics are not really representative of the true hip status of any breed. Most of us only submit xrays we expect to pass. Why would any experienced breeder pay to have an OFA evaluation on an obvioulsy dysplastic dog? Some may do it as their way of exposing a breeder or lines that produce a high incidence of HD, some to "get back" at another breeder, some because the breeder has insisted that there will be no refunds on hips unless OFA says the dog is dysplastic. If OFA stats indicate 20% of a specific breed is dysplastic, they are really saying that 20% of the xrays they are seeing are not from dogs with normal hips for that breed and age. I suspect the incidence of HD in GSD's and most other large breed dogs is a lot higher than the OFA statistics indicate, but we will never know for sure. What could be very valuable stats to the breed's future are manipulated and skewed by many. It is not material that any dog has not produced any or much HD when few of it progeny have been xrayed. A few years ago I saw one GSD rated as "unilaterally mild" on the OFA site. Later this result was removed leaving only his elbow cert. He has sired a number of litters since; I can only assume his owner was truthful about his hip status. The "still permissible" grading may equate to the SV rating of NZ; those dogs are still considered OK for breeding too.

As with any breed of dog, please do your research before investing. A couple of helpful links for anyone that may be interested in the King Shepherd: http://www.kingshepherdinfo.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kingshepherdquestions/ this is a yahoo group set up to share information for anyone inquiring about the breed, & current KS owners sharing info with pictures available. There is alot of controversy with this breed. I think these links are a good start. LHGSDlover

Okay, a little more education for Terry et.al., and then I will stop clogging the GSD list with Shiloh drama... Terry, King Shepherds were a split by one breeder from Shilohs. They have the same pedigrees just a few generations back. As a matter of fact, the sire of your puppy Manny is dual registered as both a King and a Shiloh. I am thrilled to hear that the founding kennel was presentable on the day you were present. For every one person that has visited on a decent day, I can find you 30 that have witnessed the grounds and dogs in deplorable conditions. Let's look at some real examples of the importantance (or lack of) health testing in the breed. You have stated that 50% of your Shilohs are dysplastic. Luckily, the "breed quality" Shiloh you own is not affected with HD or ED. I happen to know a bit about him, as I bred his mother. His mother comes from a litter of 13, of which at least 8 have genetic health issues. HD, ED, idiopathic epilepsy, hypothyroidism, IBS, and temperament probs that are not included in the above number. If testing and tracking are so critical in the breed, NONE of the dogs from this litter should have been used for breeding. And, if registration and certification are so important, I am not sure how your puppy has papers, as I still legally co-own his mother. These are not isolated cases, this is far too common in Shilohs. Of the 6 or so breeders and friends of mine that got started in Shilohs in the late 90's, only two are still active breeders, and neither of them have remained with the ISSR. I bring this up merely to educate. I left the negativity and drama of the breed long ago. I wish those in the know had been more open and honest with me when I was a newbie--it could have saved me a lot of heartache. Best of luck to you and your dogs!