question for clicker/marker trainers - Page 3

Crap, it ate part of my first post. 

Sorry for so many in a row! 

 " .. why when a dog is looking at you the food is thrown away and use that as a way to get's it's attention off you  .. no .. shuld be the opposite in life... : ' you looked at me , good , reward, and now dog ,  keep looking at me .that will bring the next reward .. nothing  else. if you want to give food  to the dog , then from your hand , give it ...... even though that treat leaves your hand opun being thrown [ away from youi , throwhe dog is different].. it is still yours.. so you drop a piece of food on the kitchen floor .. who does it belong to ?? it always belongs to YOU ..not the dog !! be consisitent in what we teach our dogs ..

I used to train that way but found it less effective than my new way. I don't like continually feeding a dog with no clear marker for a clear event. I found the behavior deteriorated and I got a poor "watch me." Instead, I now choose to differentially reinforce the dog for continuing to look- the dog never knows when the click and treat are coming, but knows looking away terminates the chance to get one. Basic P- in action. 

I train my own dogs (obviously) but I also train other peoples' for a living. I work with an average of 20-30 dogs per week, most of whom bite fingers when taking treats at first. That's a LOT of dogs to be biting my fingers! Ouch! 

And lastly the main reason I throw it IS to get the dog to do something else (reset) so I can reward again for choosing to look. 

And as to the last part, I can put my dogs in a sit or down and throw hotdogs at them. I can then go pick up the hotdogs. With no click, they know not to break the command. It's NOT inconsistent. It's a default leave-it. I train the dogs to never, EVER take food unless I explicitly give it to them. I have two ways of giving it to them- one is the click, the other is the command "eat." I teach this for a lot of reasons. One, it's easy to teach but looks impressive and that gets customers. Two, I'm clumsy and usually have a LOT of dogs to deal with all at once. I don't want them rushing me if I drop something. Three, I once had some of my dogs killed because someone threw poisoned meat over their fence and they hadn't been trained a default leave-it. 

I'm not saying your way is wrong, I'm just saying my way isn't, either. It's widely accepted and the most mainstream method of training using operant conditioning with a conditioned marker. 

the problem .. most often in see with what you do , as i have seen this with others.. : the scenario is trainers say " watch me "then proceed from there .. THAT is not effective .. the reason being ... you take the responsibility for the dog to look whereas the responsibility should be placed onto the dog !  that is to say .. i do not say to my dog'watch me' or "achtung' .. i say nothing ..  point #2 .. i do not use the reiforcer as a distratction .. a reinforcer is a reinforcer and should remain such .. last point .. the clicker can reinforce BUT if it were meant to 'end an exercise' then all you have to do is simply use one's mouth and tell the dog  "good sit- fall done" .
   ok .. the idea i think perhaps is right .. i use all distractions possible ,but  not the reinforcer thrown away .. even though i may  still hold the food and expect the dog to look at me . but i don't purposely redirect it's attention .. the dog is free to look where it wants to .. so a dog looks at a distraction ,it will get  nothing . When  glances back to me - ok click and treat. dog looks away on it's own accord ..nothing .. dog looks back then i can click and treat . notice i do nothing , say nothing ,, the dog makes the choice and the reponsibility is on the dog !!..BUT this must be done with finesse .. why ? because i am not training " dog you look away and then back you get a treat" - you can be reinforcing that the way you will get your dogs attention is exactly what you taught - be careful in teaching the dog the way it gets it's treat is to FIRST LOOK AWAY then look at you . .. it may purposely look away , only to look back .. in other words. it will have to look away from you in order to be in a position to look back at you .. this is not what IMO is best ... that is entirely different concept than : " dog when you are not paying attention to me but make the decision to pay attention to me  and do -" that is what i will reinforce -the better choice/decision . before you know it , what was important to the dog before [ ie the distraction] becomes unimportant because it is the act only of looking at you that the dog  gains it's goal . the dog can therefore just simply keep looking , and keep looking , and keep looking at you and and only you - it doesn't need to look away first ! .. that is the difference . that clear ?? 
               i understand what you can do .. that's good .. but realize this .. many people read here .. they do not have that level of being versed in order to do that .. they need consistency !! that is beyond a novice .. IMO people best be consistent in that respect as they teach their dogs.. my posts aren't critisms of what people do ... they are to aid people to think !
                  i understand about poison food .. that is another reason i teach food refusal formally and another reason i say i dog should learn not to take something that doesn't belong to it .. also why in class i had taught , in 1 minute i teach everyone how to teach your dog to " leave it'.AND i teach them the concept of a dog having manners !! they arte tuaght if i see it that a dog bite your finfers off for food. THAT immediately is unaccpetable .. and iwe can clean that up in less than a minute  to go forward with other things to learn ..  ok .. you throw food .. what do you think a dog taught that thrown food is a reward  , will do ?? how is this going to help the readers ? and what you just wrotew : how can i let a dog go home knowing that it takes food like that from thed opwner ?? why do i think they are there to take lessons !! that was just MHOP. 

not entirely true .. a i re -read the post o reagarding  " karen pryor " i am very familair with her work going back to 30 years ..
 ok a friend  taught his  dog to jump a hurdle   . the jump was incorrect [ this was for french ring]  . the problem is tha my friend taught the dog to jump at 1/2 meter at first .. he didn't know that is different than 1 meter in the sense that he did not teach the dog where the take off point was correctly .. therefore the dog took off atg 1 meter to close unable to clear without the toe hitting the cross  bar .  
         how did we correct this problem - set the dog up to be correct , with use of a leash and with use of a piece of cardboard where the takoff point should be .. So we take the dog over the hurdle , the precise moment the dog hits the cardboard to take off for the jump "click" , the dog completes the jump then the rewards. in the middle of the behavior we taught where the dog should be and how to change it's execution !! in the middle of the behavior came the 'marker', the click , to mark exactly what we are reinforcing .. the behavior did not stop as the dog is mid-air !! THAT IS WHY THE CLICKER IS A MARKER .. the click did not come at the end of the exercise !! yes , if one wants to reward a whole action or behavior , yes , you can click and treat at that end point [ of the entire behavior]. BUT this does not have to be so if you are 'marking'  a specific aspect or microsecond  of a behavior !! however .. ... in the relam of having a dog sit and remain sitting , each moment the dog sits is amenable to being reinforced - each  sit-leave -go back , is a different component to the total behavior you are shaping . ' which should be sit , no matter what and until i say otherwise'... just re-read my previous posts.-IMO the best way to teach a sit .. then decide for yourself .

I think you're not clearly understanding. 

My dogs DO sit until released. They DO. Even out of sight. But I also use a click to end the behavior in the early stages of teaching, and when I'm sure they know what I want, I don't use a clicker anymore. 

The click is a marker, absolutely, but the behavior I want isn't just for the dog to put its butt on the ground but to hold it until released. The behavior is NOT complete until the dog has been waiting as long as I want him to wait. 

I don't think we're arguing different points, maybe semantics. We both agree clickers mark the desired behavior, but perhaps have different definitions of desired behavior? For me, I want them to sit simply until released, and I mark that behavior, instead of marking the instant the butt touches (after proofing for compliance; at first, butt on floor = treat). 

I have re-read, and I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BUT doesn't mean I can't learn from what you have to say- that's the whole point of being here. 

I am curious as to what method you use to end bitey-fingers in two minutes? I work on bitey-fingers the week I do the default leave-it in class (bitey-fingers training is a form of default leave-it using my method.) 

dogisgood -- yes .. that is my point .. YOU are the operator .. that is what is meant by 'Operant Conditioning" .. You determine at what point the dog should be released and how .. My opinion was that a clicker is best left solely as a marker .. you decide at what part of the behavior you mark .. a specific aspect [ any part of , speed , time , distance , accuracy etc , any parameter] or the behavior as expressed in an entirety . MY point y exactly ..   
           Using a clicker :  .. that is just one way ' to operate' .. the other factor is called  " Instrumental Conditioning" . most people that do "Positive" training think they are the same .. they are not .. Instrumantal and Operant are two different manifestations of positive training methodolgy .. and both can be done utilizing a clicker .. not my intention of what is right or wrong .. my intentioon is to give readers ways to interact with their dog ..  the premise is based on a fundamental " always help make your dog/ set your dog up , to execute correctly .. some dogs will just sit there ...
                  yes .. biting fingers is a form of default .. but add the dimension of the dog understanding it should have manners . there is a positive way .. and a kind hearted negative way .. depends on the bent of the dog.. i have the opinion .. i nip things in the bud !! i don't wait .. if i see had seen an unmannered dog .. that lesson is right then and there !! helps other learn too. i just simply hold food and present to the dog .. i did not say give .. present ..the presentation is with food in the palm of my hand . i watch the dog - i pay no heed to the leash or even hold it . the owner can do that loosely .. the minute the dog goes to snatch the food , arrogantly . the hand closes .. then i woill do different things , either turn and walk a step .. and try again until the dog gets it right .. makes the right choice - gets the food .. if the dog is really arrogant i might ever so lightly tap it on the nose and give a [ negative , light soft verbal reprimand]. sometimes i use two hands filled with food. then i try with the thumb and index finger .. if the dog reverts back to snapping fast then again no food . now for manners . i up the ante .. i await until the dog is standing or sitting stil , calm and poised .. i don't aim for the dog just to take the food kindly .. i also taught 'calmness ' in dogs , 'poise' .. if you read any of my other posts RE: protection i advocate a dog learning self control !! this is very very big point for me. SELF control .. the next aspect of the food taking bit .. right there is to demo how to go through the door with the dog , how it gains it's food bowl at supper ..going and coming from cars  etc. right there that lesson of taking food i teach to transfer into every aspect of life .. all this i teach now my 15 week pup since 10 weeks .. she learned in but two times you don't jump into me for food or snatch it away - she deosn't jump to get out of crate . self control & manners.

Cool- we use a pretty similar method, but I wait until week two.