Breeding/training goals - Page 5

There are soldiers that shoot guns very well and there are soldiers that type on typewriters all day but can shoot a gun reasonably well if necessary. Seems what we have in the GSD world is both types of soldiers. Is it really wrong to want an extra beautiful looking GSD that is adequate in the working stuff and is it really wrong to want a GSD that works extremely well but just looks okay. There is room for both. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla ice cream. People have different tastes. You have showline, okay, you have a showline. You have a working line, okay, you have a working line. If you really want a working line, there are pit bulls, rottweillers, etc. that will knock your socks off. If you really want a show dog, there are huskies, shelties, etc, that will knock yur socks off. Get what YOU want and forget everyone else's opinion. No one owns the breed. Most will say that it is all about maintaining the original idea of what the breed was to be. If this is true, then why did Max and his people start the SV and how come it ended up with the VA and V dogs that everybody puts down. Sort of like the designated hitter in baseball. One league has it, one league doesn't. Half the fans like it, half don't. Who is right? You?

Do you really think that if Max was stanting nex to me at the Sieger show he would have a big smile on his face. Do you think he would consider a dog breed quality that ran off the field as soon as the helper moved his hand to raise the stick. Every body has and objective show lines for beauty working lines for working ability. While the SV does regulate breeding in a half hearted attempt the preserve our breed. It also cares for its self and that is called self preservation. To live it needs the money generated by the show dogs. We have sucessfully created an auxiluary type of dog. I can see why this is happening.Its called Money $$$$$$$$$. Maybe the SV is not all at fault. But the judges who have granted these inept dogs titles are also destroying our beloved Breed.

I am sure there are some show-lines that can work and I am sure there are some weak working lines out there, but this is not the norm. Could the nerve base be weak and the fear factor have some play or be mistaken for the hardness in the show-lines you are speaking of is my concern? Generallly speaking the working lines always excel in the working abilty were little emphases is put on the beauty. How many VA dogs do you see at the BSP or WUSV? I am a working line breeder so what I strive as a breeder is different than a show-line breeder. I have never combined a working line with a show line and feel the dogs have evolved so different that the outcome would not be suitable. If all breeders in general would not breed a dog that was not suitable for breeding both lines would improve. I hate to see any dog breed for beauty alone without consideration of health, temperament and working ability in the shepherd lines. This is how every breed in this country ends up with severe issues. When I was young the Cocker Spaniel was the dog of choice for children as a pet, today the chances of getting a Cocker Spaniel to fit in a house with children is almost zero. The reason is the fad breeding for the coat, the colors, size, close line breeding, with no attention to the temperament.

all off you should better spend your time on working your dogs rather than play on your pc. It dousnt matter what type off dog you have "working & show" they all are GSD!! Its not the minority off people working ore show that make the GSD the way he is but the real amateur having this GSD as his friend for life not to beat the sh.. out off him iff he isn't dooing what's asked off him, just love him the way he is.

Well it looked like this was going to be a productive thread for a little while. Too bad all this has to turn into the old worn out and out dated show vs. working crap that's been worn out time and time again. The original point is there is a group of people that are improving the working ability of the German Shepherd in the US by breeding the better conformation line dogs and training these dogs to perform. There is direction and progress. Get it! Direction and progress in the conformation line to produce better working ability consistently. For those few breeders that care about working ability here's a chance to check something out that may benefit your breeding program. From what I see the gap is closing. I'm seeing better working ability in the conformation line and beter structure in the working line as breeders better their breeding programs. Is the conformation line dog going to prevail at the BSP next year???? Nope. But the working dog is not going to be VA either. So where do you go from here? There are examples of working line dogs that have correct structure and conformation line dogs that have working ability. If your goal is to improve the breed in esch respect. Seek the dogs that excell where the line is weak.

The likelihood of seeing a showline in the next 5 years is highly likely and the likelihood of seeing a working line go VA1 or VA2 is extremely unlikelihood. Most showlines will never be able to handle the pressure put on dogs in bigger trials like this and most working lines will never have the extreme roached backs, be red with a fading saddle back. But the goals for working line breeders when it comes to confirmation only includes good structure. Most working line breeders aren't extremists on roached backs that look like a 5 ton weight is attached to their back end. Neither are they interested in striking red coats and how well the dog fly trots so yes the goals are different. VA lines in the 70's and 80's were bred to have good confirmation and have good work ethics. What happened? Most can't do both now and their idea of confirmation has changed. The dogs then look FAR from what they look like now. Working line breeders should put a little more emphasis on confirmation and they've got more fine tuning to do when it comes to work. But comparing the (2) is like comparing apples to oranges. The working lines fit more within example of what the GSD was created as far more than the showline. Showlines are just a touch from the American lines which were ruined some decades ago. They claims to focus on beauty too (beauty is in the eye of the beholder apparently). Do they focus on workability? HECK NO!!! And yet they still carry the name German Shepherd.

"Many of the dogs performance at the sieger show level is not that impressive. Look at the results from the recent USA sieger show. How many of the VA group failed the bitework at previous sieger shows? Quite a few." ***************************************************** And, look at the videos of the dogs who passed and should never have passed! Also, make an effort to watch the multiple, PAID, practice sessions with the event helpers--over a period of DAYS prior to the "real" performance tests. My god--if a person repeatedly pads the wallets of these helpers to work their dogs in "practice" sessions, aren't these same helpers a bit biased to doing "whatever it takes" to seeing that these "paying" dogs "pass"? In 1993, I recall where the owner of an extremely well-known dog went to the motel room of a SS helper and offered him $1000 to prepare his dog. The helper declined the offer--the dog failed his performance test! How about breed surveys where owners (who can afford it) take their dogs to the hosting club's field to be worked with the BS helpers for successive days before the event?

Thank you for bringing this up! Yes, I hear that it 'customary' to pad the wallets of the helpers...with the implication that if you don't... No, NOT all helpers are in this racket, nor are all judges, handlers, and breeders. But it does exist, no question about it.

"Yes, I hear that it 'customary' to pad the wallets of the helpers...with the implication that if you don't..." ****************************************************** In Carson City, someone collected $40 for every dog practicing with the helpers. For many dogs, these "practice" sessions became lengthy "training" sessions--what with long lines, pinch collars, etc. Oh, yeah, not having unresrticted funds, I worked my dog ONCE--just the ROUTINE--ALL OFF LEAD--no "training". I'm not saying that if people don't pay the helpers, their dogs are doomed not to pass. What I am saying is that, by the grace of the helpers and repeated, paid training sessions with them, some dogs finally manage to "squeak by". However, if you had seen them during their first "practice" sessions, you would have sworn that they would never have passed.

The pad the wallet routine went away after 2003. The organizations now compensate the helpers to avoid the conflict. Those days are gone. As a side note: It's really too bad this site is sort of the cesspool of the German Shepherd breed. All the crap that exists in the GSD world ultimately makes it's way here. Most is unfounded and just taints the sport. For those that are trying to gain knowledge about the GSD world. About 30% of what's posted here is almost accurate. the other 70% is pure BS. Those that knew enough and cared enough for the most part are long gone as they could not save the world from the crap overload. They just got tired of giving good advice to be picked on a few minutes later from someone that knew less than their dog. Hopefully DH will stay around to keep things in perspective and Preston will back her up from time to time. The German Shepherd breed and all that goes with it is really an enjoyable expierience if done reasonably correctly. Seek knowledge from those that have success.