the horse whisperer -- - Page 2

Deanna, I love Parelli, and I did the same program ( quite a few years ago) with my Arab Stud as you are doing. ( I think he is handsome.  )
Training a horse is nothing like training a dog though, wasn't it Parelli that referred to that in the program? Totally different concept as one is a prey animal and the other is a predator, however, the trust and respect would be similar.

It is nice to hear of people knowledgable of Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman.  I have learned from them throughout my life.
The movie is great.  Relationship is the basis for everything.  Rule number one, in my book,  don't do anything to damage the relationship with my dogs/horses.   Next...be fair, neutral....no room for frustration, anger, contempt..., train from a mental side.....and keep the passion for our animals and the sports. 


I have a 14 mo old laekenois coming to me this week.  He is from a breeder who is a friend of mine.  His owners live across the country from the breeder...did not call when problems arose, where of the mind to let him grow up and be free with no rules.  When he became territorial and protective....normal behavior in the dog's mind.....he was returned to the breeder.  I will be his chance for a life...his only chance.  I am sure he will be fine.  He will find security, management, replacement behaviors to be successful at...and in turn know his place, rules and a job.    Animals without first having knowledge and a plan is like the cart before the horse.  

Please read Buck's book....the Faraway Horses and see the movie.  Your animals and you will benefit.

ok .. to keep this post  going .. i will throw out the TWO MOST IMPORTANT tools/  features when interacting with your dog , your horses, your spouse , your children ... they are : YOUR MIND [ meaning your thoughts and emotions stemming from it] and YOUR ATTITUDE [ that results from your thoughts]. they determine your body , which is the prime mover to communicating with animals .. you may say something to a dog .. a person .. but believe me the animal  reads your face even before you utter a word [ amoungst other things ]. the most important fact that 'I' had to understand .. is that if you want to teach [ not train .. teach], YOU must first master YOURSELF !!
            i see people ask about "clicker traing" , or they ask how to solve a problem ... always the how's , how to's , or why's ... Hardly ever do i see written .. what is as MOAT important. AND that  is not just what you do , what you say .. but HOW YOU do and what YOU say ..
            for example you want to teach a dog sit; i see written  stupid things like ' sound commanding' .. stupidity ... just say in a voice of soft , kind statement, with certainty and normality of pitch , tone , cadence , frequency : " sit". no reason to sound like a drill seargent, or sound uncertain , of be loud , or nervous .. my point is it is the interaction / relationship that teaches and binds!! YOUR feeling , mindset , your attitude !!   if you think the dog won't .. then it ... won't !!   E.G.    .. even the professionals .,. Schutzhund .. i see these people yell "AUS "meaning out from the bite . why in the world ar you folks yelling ? i will out my dog from the bite , decoy moving or not .. AUS is AUSA , not an issue .. it is  on a whisper .. WHY can i just simply whisper ?? .. because i taught him form myself , by controlling myself , i BELIEVE from good teaching , i am CONFIDENT , my ATTITUDE is the "AUS " will happen !!, From mastering myself .. i was able to teach  him self control .. IMO this is one of the BIGGEST  foundamentals to training/ teaching dogs .. Mastery of one's self !!  and i think that if you can do that .. you can betterr all your relationships  form :  co-workers , children ., pupils .. ALL your relations will be for the better . this is how MY dogs have bettered my life .. training is not IMO to program an animal .. it is for the betterment  of human and canine [ horses etc.] alike !! Everytime i teach a dog .. they remind me : aptience , clarity in communication , calmness of spirit , poise ,. i can talk louder and more precise to my dogs with my posture and my EYES than i can with my mouth !! [ you know .. actions DO speak louder than words !!!].....So ..... just a post for us to reflect on  ..

Alphapup....

     Interesting things to consider in your last post.....

     I have been working on using my energy to "move" the horses out of my space...It is amazing what you can communicate or accomplish with your body posture and confident energy...

     You said, "why in the world are you folks yelling ".....lol..that is funny..

     You also said, " I am CONFIDENT , my ATTITUDE is the "AUS ".....I like that..  ...........
 
      Last , but not least you said, "  actions DO speak louder than words !!!].....So ..... just a post for us to reflect on  ..Good stuff...


RedSable...Yes, Pat Parelli is handsome...: )    and he did say that dogs are different then training horses....However, as you said, some of the concepts are the same....
 ..Good stuff...ggggggfgffgfgg

Ruger1 .. i started this thread ,, because .. i see a lot of 'views' on this forum .. granted there are a number of knowledgable people too that comment  .. BUT:
                  i always see people asking 'how to solve problems ' !. we know .. unless genetic .. we , the people create 99% of the problems, yes? . many want 'quick fixes ' , methods , how to's ... ALL this is secondary .. secondary to Understanding the dog Mind [ from where all behavior originates] and it as a species .. both of which leads to behavior .. not addressing things in that light IMO is a dis-service !! with all the so called experienced people on this forum .. very few .. a handful .. contributed to this specific thread .. very few discussed  how ' to think dog' ., feel as the dog does' .. how dogs learn &  assimilate information .. : THESE are the UNDERLYING basis for solving problems , teaching /training / rearing a dog [ or a horse]. like martial arts ... every human being 'knows how to move" there is no enlightnement here. e.g somehow we need a spelled-out  technique  in order to be able to fight ..evry amrtial aret movemnt is some movment we can do during our normal day ..  this is what i see in the dog world .. we get cerebral . we seek instruction .. we are similar yet different than dogs yet we need a ' how to' in order to interact with them .. we have all the information deep down inside us !! we are LIKE dogs .. they are like us yet at the same time different . this is another pathway to training .. no one discusses the dogs in terms of ourselves and , ourselves as it relates to our dogs , our Natures .. .
                       e.g .. threads on defense drive were recently posted ... common sense - what in the world do you percieve as a threat , a challenge to your survival , what would you think and feel , how would you respond , act -what are your choices.... everybody talks here in  cliche terms that they completely misss the boat. answer those questions that you know of yourself and you will be closer to understanding the dog .. what seperates us is their instincts and how they use their senses to survive..
               e.g .. there was a post here about 'dogs lacking prey drive ' ... so what promnotes a dog to be in prey ? do you understand the dog ? one feature is their eyes .. their eyes are biologically like ours except for the number of rods and cones .. they are more perceptive to 'movement'. they percieve movement like us yet different . so .. the point -if you wish to see if a dog has prey drive ,.,, first order is to observe ,as you would , what is being moved , how it is being moved  , from where it is being moved.. some dogs will chase any slight movement , others will chase quick , short burst like movements. that is what wil excite them ..don't just dismiss the dog not having prey drive without fully understanding the dog.!
                 again .. - we must ' be the dog', think dog , as it is not to much unlike how we are - we are animals too .. - then address training , teachiung , problem solving.. if you just look for ways to do things .. then when it comes to a dog/horse .. you will stay in a rut ... always looking for the solution , without seeing that it already in the question ..

My riding instructor said that every moment you were with your horse, you were either training it or untraining it. That's why I found riding such a great recreation. Your entire focus had to be on the horse at all times, leaving no room to worry about anything else.

I remember this one fall I had where a very clumsy young horse got its legs tied up in a knot, and quite literally fell flat on its face. My foot went through the reins as I slid off. Luckily, the bridle was stripped right off the horse's head when he sprang to his feet, and I didn't get dragged. However, the poor horse stood there for a moment or two with its mouth gaping, going "OH my poor MOUTH! That HURT!"

My instructor came over and helped me dust myself off, then said something I've never forgotten: "J.J, no matter whether the horse falls or not, it's STILL THE RIDER'S FAULT!"

I realized that was true. If I had been better at helping this green, young horse to balance himself, he woudn't have fallen.

Due to the physical contact with the horse in riding, the teamwork is much more intimate than it is with working dogs. The rider can often feel the horse's heartbeat, and the horse can sense many things about its rider through the contact of his or her legs, hands and seat. That's why an old jumping adage says that the rider must 'throw his heart over the fence'. If the horse senses any hesitation from the rider, he is likely to refuse the jump.   As one famous equestrien phrased it: "What remarkable reciprocity: the rider throws his heart over the fence; the horse jumps in pursuit of it!"

The more time I spent with my horse, the more I learned to read her body language and moods. One of the horses I worked with extensively had a habit of spooking at things, and dumping her rider in the dirt. It was all a ploy to get out of working. If you were prepared for the spook, it woudn't happen, but the second she felt your concentration flagging, she'd take this HUGE jump sideways. I was one of the few people she never dumped with this trick, because I learned to pick up on the very subtle clues that warmed me she was about to try it.

The same applies to our dogs. This is why I can't understand how someone could keep their dog kenneled and only take it out for an hour or so each day to work with it. I WANT my dogs with me as much as possible, Yes, I realize some dogs get destructive when left alone, and have to be kenneled or crated. But the rest of the time, I feel they benefit from being with their owner. Right at this moment, I have one furry body underneath my desk, and another beside my chair, because they WANT to be close to me.

   Sunsilver

      I enjoyed reading your post...

A good thread indeed. While growing up I had the nickname of Dr. Doolittle; I could bring all the animals home, even the mean ones. "Something" was there just couldn't explain it.

My grandparents raise/race (I think you call them) harness trotters? And while in the military (@ '83) I returned for leave. We took a ride out to the farm to see the new foals. My father was born and raised on a farm in Texas, could ride and in his younger days broke horses for $68.00 a month. He would help the grandparents at times on their farm with the horses. There was a MEAN one that was pretty much uncontrollable and hurt a couple of people by pinning them into the walls of the stall. And this horse was strong and knew what he was doing. I arrived at the farm and was excited to see all the horses. I walked into the barn before anyone could tell me of the mean one.

Everyone heard a ruckus and came in to see what was up and tell me of the horse. To their disbelief I was with the mean one. He was the first horse I noticed and the first one I approached. There was a few seconds of him trying to pin me up against the wall but after I had a few seconds with him it was all good. When the family came in I was stroking his head and talking to him and they couldn't believe it. Once they told me the things that he did and the two he hurt I just had to think a bit.

At my second job, (work nights), I befriended a female fox around six months ago. After time, this fox would approach my cruiser and sit, just like an obedient dog). I would feed her and it got to the point that if I was parked she would go the the curb and go to sleep to be near. I could be at different locations and she would come to meet me at the vehicle. I would see her almost everyday and there were days that I didn't work she would approach my coworkers.(They would shoot me texts with pics saying she was looking for me). Unfortunately I think her friendliness got her killed. (Hope not).  

To sum it up, I think "IT" lies within the human......

On another note, I can't remember the name of the man. There was a documentary on him. He befriended and researched Kodiak Grizzlies. He would go back every season to Alaska. Tons of footage showing him playing with the cubs. One season he didn't return home and the search found his campsite and cameras etc., showing what had happened. Too sad. I believe it was a mother bear that attacked him. Awesome story! (up to that point).       

Sunsilver,

The dog part.... so true. Before having a child I look and still do to the dogs as my children. Why would I want them away from me IF they could be near? If I'm at my desk the male most of the time likes to be under the desk, in the little cubby hole in front of my feet. any where, even in the shower they want to be close. I just always thought that was how it was supposed to be. They are a part of me. Part of the family.