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by clc29 on 29 July 2011 - 15:07
Thanks Ladyfrost........that sounds like a great idea........Will try that this afternoon.
by clc29 on 29 July 2011 - 15:07
Thanks VKGSD's
First I tried holding my hand and hot dog similarly to the way you show in your pictures........your hand looks more parallel to the ground than mine..... and he was trying to take my whole hand in his mouth.
........Then I tried dropping it from my hand (in same position) but he wouldn't catch it......so that kind of defeated the exercise because he's looking on the ground for the hot dog and not my hand.
I will also try holding my hand more parallel, with the hot dog held in place by only my thumb, then all I'll have to do is open my thumb.
First I tried holding my hand and hot dog similarly to the way you show in your pictures........your hand looks more parallel to the ground than mine..... and he was trying to take my whole hand in his mouth.
........Then I tried dropping it from my hand (in same position) but he wouldn't catch it......so that kind of defeated the exercise because he's looking on the ground for the hot dog and not my hand.I will also try holding my hand more parallel, with the hot dog held in place by only my thumb, then all I'll have to do is open my thumb.
by ALPHAPUP on 29 July 2011 - 16:07
adcise .1 .. don't correct the dog for being a cow hound .. WHY .. becaue YOU haven't taught him to be mannered and communicated sufficiently wehat YOU expectations are .. IMO .. i think that is unfair to the dog .. if you have taught and the dog ;forgets himself' , sor t to speak ... then most often a light , soft verbal remprimand/ remoindr i have found is sufficient .. ?? definitions of correction .. that is a genreal expression invoving various shades of grey !! my eyes alone can serve as a communicator !!
point two .. i did Sch , even 20 years ago .. So... i personally do not like the hot dog being held by the hand .. perhaps witrh this execpetion .. ther need to give the dog constant reinforcement before switching to a variable reinforcement schedule .. NOW ...... the HEEL /FUSS IMO best not be taught as a movement !! it is a POSITION !! hence the word - heel. the defintion of heel is the dog sitting at my left side staight forward , toe to toe with me .. I have taught this to my pup .. i start with a sit in front , use food to lure her to me left side , past my body , she turns into me as she is behind me and then steps into heel .. next . step .. i generalize .. that no matter where she is close or far .. heel means 1 thing .. move that but go to my left and sit toe to toe - food reinforcement. so no matter what heel/fuss means one thing .. no matter !! the last leg.. now i call her to heel and take one step /reinforce- fthen .. repeat .. one step advance in time to two steps , then onto 4 steps 8 steps etc etc. turns to the right , turns to the left , backing up .. ther dog always goes into that exact postion first taguht .. the backing up is to keep the dog honest from forging .. turns to the left and right help keep the dog not bumping into me .. NOW re: heel .. the reinforcement at the bigining may be in the right hand , only to lure the pup .. but after some point .. i do not feed from the left !! i feed from the right .. i feed from anywhere out ouf sight with my right !! do not let the dog see the food or you will pull the dog aroun in front of yolu , it will bend around you. the food presentation comes quick out of no where .. why ??? because i do not want to train the dog to look at my hand .. i use my left hand in normal walking position and movement .. THAT is the way it is at trial, that is the way i create the picture for the dog !! AND .. why imprint the dog looking toward your hand then you make it more difficult for the dog to look up to your face !! after the dog has learned heel walking , focus has been taught seperately , then i combine the two behaviors .. such that the focus to the face is developed before i start the Heel position with movement - in that maneer the dog is already accustomed to getting rewarded by any or the right hand and from above , where the face is .. : i would IMO throw that video that is posted in front of this -- out the window !! last comment- oh ya - 20 years aoge trained that way for Sch .. BUT as they did 20 years ago always used the hot dog / day of trial rubbed the hot dog scent on the hand -- to me that is and was hogwash !! THSAT is not true positve motivational training .. to me that was and still is bribery and not a well trained dog .. YA .. perhaps those that do that tech today may get points .. but IMO that trainging and perfromance of my dog is worthless . IMO foolishness and to me what's the point of wasting time with training if all the dog will work dog is a hot dog ?? i can detect the manner of training in the blink of an eye .. -- i laugh at that training .. not to be indignant .. but let's be honest .. that is bribery : the prolbem is that : with that type of training when the reinforcement is stopped the behavior will extinguish .. true motivational training is different !! the dog will ultimately preform, with or without a bribe .. perhaps now and then one can give s
point two .. i did Sch , even 20 years ago .. So... i personally do not like the hot dog being held by the hand .. perhaps witrh this execpetion .. ther need to give the dog constant reinforcement before switching to a variable reinforcement schedule .. NOW ...... the HEEL /FUSS IMO best not be taught as a movement !! it is a POSITION !! hence the word - heel. the defintion of heel is the dog sitting at my left side staight forward , toe to toe with me .. I have taught this to my pup .. i start with a sit in front , use food to lure her to me left side , past my body , she turns into me as she is behind me and then steps into heel .. next . step .. i generalize .. that no matter where she is close or far .. heel means 1 thing .. move that but go to my left and sit toe to toe - food reinforcement. so no matter what heel/fuss means one thing .. no matter !! the last leg.. now i call her to heel and take one step /reinforce- fthen .. repeat .. one step advance in time to two steps , then onto 4 steps 8 steps etc etc. turns to the right , turns to the left , backing up .. ther dog always goes into that exact postion first taguht .. the backing up is to keep the dog honest from forging .. turns to the left and right help keep the dog not bumping into me .. NOW re: heel .. the reinforcement at the bigining may be in the right hand , only to lure the pup .. but after some point .. i do not feed from the left !! i feed from the right .. i feed from anywhere out ouf sight with my right !! do not let the dog see the food or you will pull the dog aroun in front of yolu , it will bend around you. the food presentation comes quick out of no where .. why ??? because i do not want to train the dog to look at my hand .. i use my left hand in normal walking position and movement .. THAT is the way it is at trial, that is the way i create the picture for the dog !! AND .. why imprint the dog looking toward your hand then you make it more difficult for the dog to look up to your face !! after the dog has learned heel walking , focus has been taught seperately , then i combine the two behaviors .. such that the focus to the face is developed before i start the Heel position with movement - in that maneer the dog is already accustomed to getting rewarded by any or the right hand and from above , where the face is .. : i would IMO throw that video that is posted in front of this -- out the window !! last comment- oh ya - 20 years aoge trained that way for Sch .. BUT as they did 20 years ago always used the hot dog / day of trial rubbed the hot dog scent on the hand -- to me that is and was hogwash !! THSAT is not true positve motivational training .. to me that was and still is bribery and not a well trained dog .. YA .. perhaps those that do that tech today may get points .. but IMO that trainging and perfromance of my dog is worthless . IMO foolishness and to me what's the point of wasting time with training if all the dog will work dog is a hot dog ?? i can detect the manner of training in the blink of an eye .. -- i laugh at that training .. not to be indignant .. but let's be honest .. that is bribery : the prolbem is that : with that type of training when the reinforcement is stopped the behavior will extinguish .. true motivational training is different !! the dog will ultimately preform, with or without a bribe .. perhaps now and then one can give s
by VKGSDs on 29 July 2011 - 17:07
Just to clarify, I don't really teach heel/fuss as movement being fed a hotdog. With a puppy, I lead them along and feed them (as shown in the pics) to help develop muscle memory for the position I want the dog to be in. This is pure luring and there are no commands or corrections associated with it because I'm not training an actual behavior, just physically conditioning the dog. Not the heel position relative to me, but the way the dog himself is standing/moving. I do not increase or decrease the amount of food they get, from 7 weeks to 7 months I do the exercise the *exact* same way. When the pup is older and ready for the other methods I use, I begin to teach the actual heeling and position (not with food at all). Then, because the dog has already been conditioned to assume a certain position with his body/rear end the heeling looks like what I want. Many people do the same but have the dog between their legs. You don't have to have the dog in heel position relative to you because that is not what is being taught. Not all GSDs naturally "collect" in the rear which is what I like to see when heeling later on. Why not introduce that and develop the physical strength for it right away? The dog in my pictures is 11 months old now and does not have a fuss/heel command yet. It has more to do with the conformation of the dog and style of movement than how to teach a dog to heel. The puppy in the photos is going to mature to be on the larger side and needs to develop the right type of strength and movement in his rear to heel the way I want.
by ALPHAPUP on 30 July 2011 - 13:07
VK.. i understan about that type of conditioning .. and i understand you are trying to accomplish a specifc aim - and it looks flashy in short spurts .. .. i had once done that too- in Sch .. although IMO not real to life , nor practical , but i acknowledge the Sch sport for what it is .. so in that sense one must do what they have to do ... .. i would just eneunciate more precisely .. in order to condition a behavior or muscle memory .. the behavior must first be taught or in the phase of being taughtin order for muscle memory to develop .. ..
As for me .. this is why i left Sch /.. as you state : always the same exact pattern .. always .. .. the dog does not think or have to think to perform .. .. it is formed in to a' stereotypic behavior' .. and i am not knocking that .. i once trianed , every single movenment 100% exactly precisely - my dog's and mine as well for consistency .. now if you or i [ in my Sch training ] took a step back as you heeled , or a step laterally , or circled right or left in 360+ turns , what would your dog do / the whole roution for many Sch dogs , the heel breaks down .. you can unbdestand is why i say to me that is not 'heel' . and to keep that Sch heel you actually have to teach 2 commands , 2 manners of walking of you will corrupt the routine , it wcome unpolished .. not the way i teach now to mty dogs .. Heel is unshakable , uncorruptable .. my dog can be 30 yards away .. and if i say 'heel/fuss' i get the same exact behavior , the dog to my side -toe to toe no Matter if i am static OR if i am moving- walkng , running , turning , jumping anything .. the dog can 'think' and act .. if i send the dog to bite and it is asked to out and i call it to heel - the same response the dog thinks and comes to heel no matter.... UNLIKE muscle memory my dogs 'think'.. it is not a pre-orchestrated , same run of the mill exection .. the dog has to adapt to me !! So what the matter boils down to is this .. do you want to teach a competition Sch heel or do you want a life lasting , everyday practical heel ., concrete relaible heel ?? in ending : my hat to you for how you teach .. mine and yours are just different ..
As for me .. this is why i left Sch /.. as you state : always the same exact pattern .. always .. .. the dog does not think or have to think to perform .. .. it is formed in to a' stereotypic behavior' .. and i am not knocking that .. i once trianed , every single movenment 100% exactly precisely - my dog's and mine as well for consistency .. now if you or i [ in my Sch training ] took a step back as you heeled , or a step laterally , or circled right or left in 360+ turns , what would your dog do / the whole roution for many Sch dogs , the heel breaks down .. you can unbdestand is why i say to me that is not 'heel' . and to keep that Sch heel you actually have to teach 2 commands , 2 manners of walking of you will corrupt the routine , it wcome unpolished .. not the way i teach now to mty dogs .. Heel is unshakable , uncorruptable .. my dog can be 30 yards away .. and if i say 'heel/fuss' i get the same exact behavior , the dog to my side -toe to toe no Matter if i am static OR if i am moving- walkng , running , turning , jumping anything .. the dog can 'think' and act .. if i send the dog to bite and it is asked to out and i call it to heel - the same response the dog thinks and comes to heel no matter.... UNLIKE muscle memory my dogs 'think'.. it is not a pre-orchestrated , same run of the mill exection .. the dog has to adapt to me !! So what the matter boils down to is this .. do you want to teach a competition Sch heel or do you want a life lasting , everyday practical heel ., concrete relaible heel ?? in ending : my hat to you for how you teach .. mine and yours are just different ..
by Vixen on 30 July 2011 - 19:07
I would not accept a dog grabbing at me or causing any personal discomfort (some dogs even bang into their Owner on a Recall)! But the dog is being allowed to act in this manner and do this, even encouraged to some extent, instead of being made aware of having respect.
However, I do not train with any kind of food, plus my Clubs are also run on this basis too.
Obedience, surely should mean respectful obedience to the Owner, not a type of trick-training, or a Performance. Dogs can learn to Walk to Heel, or Retrieve, in just the same way as learning to 'Shake a Paw' or Roll-over, but 'Shake a Paw' does not mean they respect you, and neither necessarily Walking to Heel! Respect is highly important to dogs. You cannot buy it, you need to earn it.
Now there is Formal and Informal interaction. The Formal is requiring a dog to learn to be highly attentive, and to learn precisely required movements of position, and responsive reactions to a command of activity. Informal is the general relationship with your dog. This is of absolute importance - the respect between you both. You cannot (or personally I consider should not) have Formal + Little Else. It should mean Formal + Informal - The Leadership guidance of relationship is never off duty!
I visited an Obedience Club while on holiday, (with permission) asking if I could participate with one of my dogs. While away, it would be lovely for me to simply join in one evening, and give one of my dog's a 'work-out' without any responsibilty as an Instructor. However, I was shocked by the low level of work, and the behaviour of the dogs with their Owners. My own dog was laying down next to my chair. Remained there, irrespective if I went across the Hall to speak to someone. An hour later the Advance Class arrived, - the dogs were pulling, pushing, grabbing, poking, jumping, barking. I could not believe what was considered acceptable. I even politely asked if this was the Advance Class, and was told that yes, and they would start once the dogs had "settled". "SETTLED"! They were seriously waiting for the dogs to decide to be ready to work for their Owners???? At this point one of the Instructors came over and commented how quiet and laid-back my GSD was. I had to tell her (which should not have been necessary in an Obedience Club) that she was laying down calm and relaxed because she was required to, not because she was "quiet and laid-back". The lady's face obviously thought differently, so I said my dog's name - and instantly she was up, attentive and very ready. The lady's face changed immediately.
So I do not want my dogs or the dogs of Owners I teach to perform for their own personal gain, but for respect of the relationship between us.
(Equally, a required Performance is aimed for in UK Obedience Competitions, but outside of the Ring is quite a different matter. Some people find this perfectly acceptable, but this is not how I see teaching and training, and respectful response of learning between Man/Woman and Dog).
Regards,
Vixen
However, I do not train with any kind of food, plus my Clubs are also run on this basis too.
Obedience, surely should mean respectful obedience to the Owner, not a type of trick-training, or a Performance. Dogs can learn to Walk to Heel, or Retrieve, in just the same way as learning to 'Shake a Paw' or Roll-over, but 'Shake a Paw' does not mean they respect you, and neither necessarily Walking to Heel! Respect is highly important to dogs. You cannot buy it, you need to earn it.
Now there is Formal and Informal interaction. The Formal is requiring a dog to learn to be highly attentive, and to learn precisely required movements of position, and responsive reactions to a command of activity. Informal is the general relationship with your dog. This is of absolute importance - the respect between you both. You cannot (or personally I consider should not) have Formal + Little Else. It should mean Formal + Informal - The Leadership guidance of relationship is never off duty!
I visited an Obedience Club while on holiday, (with permission) asking if I could participate with one of my dogs. While away, it would be lovely for me to simply join in one evening, and give one of my dog's a 'work-out' without any responsibilty as an Instructor. However, I was shocked by the low level of work, and the behaviour of the dogs with their Owners. My own dog was laying down next to my chair. Remained there, irrespective if I went across the Hall to speak to someone. An hour later the Advance Class arrived, - the dogs were pulling, pushing, grabbing, poking, jumping, barking. I could not believe what was considered acceptable. I even politely asked if this was the Advance Class, and was told that yes, and they would start once the dogs had "settled". "SETTLED"! They were seriously waiting for the dogs to decide to be ready to work for their Owners???? At this point one of the Instructors came over and commented how quiet and laid-back my GSD was. I had to tell her (which should not have been necessary in an Obedience Club) that she was laying down calm and relaxed because she was required to, not because she was "quiet and laid-back". The lady's face obviously thought differently, so I said my dog's name - and instantly she was up, attentive and very ready. The lady's face changed immediately.
So I do not want my dogs or the dogs of Owners I teach to perform for their own personal gain, but for respect of the relationship between us.
(Equally, a required Performance is aimed for in UK Obedience Competitions, but outside of the Ring is quite a different matter. Some people find this perfectly acceptable, but this is not how I see teaching and training, and respectful response of learning between Man/Woman and Dog).
Regards,
Vixen
by VKGSDs on 30 July 2011 - 19:07
Alphapup, don't read so much into it. SchH is not the end all or be all, certainly not for me! I title in about a dozen different dog sports and am not one that trains to eek out every point in SchH obedience. Yes I train in SchH but it's not even our favorite thing nor the top priority. I train my dogs to perform each behavior the way *I* like them to, not what is trendy on the Schutzhund field. If you are questioning my training of heel you are welcome to come observe my dogs rather than read too much into what you think I am trying to train and why.
by Rass on 31 July 2011 - 11:07
I have never had a dog's drive change simply becaue I insisted on good manners (no alligator mouth). If you have a drivey dog manners will not hurt the drive.
I have one dog I trained to focus with food and one that is in training that I use toys for focus. For lure training the heel, I trained with the food between my fingers (like the picture of the pen). First I trained the dog to touch my hand (using the food like that) and then I trained heel and rewarded correct position with the food between my fingers. Eventually I used the food between my fingers combined with Touch and no food.
I also use a toy.. training attention first with the toy as a reward (quick burst of tug with attention work in between). Eventually this is attention in motion. The object is to reward the dog for looking at YOU and NOT the toy (or the food).. and then release so the dog can be rewarded with the toy (or the food). Start with two way attention and then progress to one way attention.
As I progress I remove the toy from my person and put it elsewhere. At this point we are taking steps and the dog is looking at me.. then I release and we go to the toy and have a game of tug (or whatever).
The work progresses so that eventually we have duration built in.
Having used food and toys I will have to say I MUCH prefer to use toys as a reward for being attentive.
I have one dog I trained to focus with food and one that is in training that I use toys for focus. For lure training the heel, I trained with the food between my fingers (like the picture of the pen). First I trained the dog to touch my hand (using the food like that) and then I trained heel and rewarded correct position with the food between my fingers. Eventually I used the food between my fingers combined with Touch and no food.
I also use a toy.. training attention first with the toy as a reward (quick burst of tug with attention work in between). Eventually this is attention in motion. The object is to reward the dog for looking at YOU and NOT the toy (or the food).. and then release so the dog can be rewarded with the toy (or the food). Start with two way attention and then progress to one way attention.
As I progress I remove the toy from my person and put it elsewhere. At this point we are taking steps and the dog is looking at me.. then I release and we go to the toy and have a game of tug (or whatever).
The work progresses so that eventually we have duration built in.
Having used food and toys I will have to say I MUCH prefer to use toys as a reward for being attentive.
by ALPHAPUP on 31 July 2011 - 12:07
Vixen .. as usual i like your post .. - nice to have shared with the others on the forum !! [ BTW i always enjoy reading your posts .. you contribute a lot for people to contemplate that are new to GSDs]!! .. VKGSD ... for the recored .. i am not evaluating how you train .. i have no motivation to be critical of you !!my posts : just shared thoughts directed to the 1000+ readers so that they my formulate their thoughts in regards to what they do with their dogs. i am very pleased to have people disagree with me - that means they are thinking or doing !!
by Vixen on 31 July 2011 - 13:07
ALPHAPUP, - Likewise! (I do enjoy your attitude to training, views and ideas. Particularly the passion of dedication to the relationship with the dog. Equally, your lack of being egotistical - which is sometimes a risk in these situations).
This particular Forum is enjoyable for being broad-minded plus out-spoken (with varied degrees) LOL. But at least giving people variable ideas to help, consider or debate.
Vixen
This particular Forum is enjoyable for being broad-minded plus out-spoken (with varied degrees) LOL. But at least giving people variable ideas to help, consider or debate.
Vixen
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