Unethical? Lazy? or Just plain Stupid?? - Page 6

I agree with Denwolf in that, if it is semen owned by you which has been collected and stored from your own stud dogs and which was already collected in your name, there is probably little chance there would ever be an issue with AKC over that.  It's the use of outside studs not owned by you that will need the signature of the owner of the stud dog.  It may never become an issue, unless at some point there is a challenge to the authenticity of the litter, the stud used, or as to the registration being granted on pups from said litter.

WHenever I've taken my own dogs to have them collected and their semen stored,..I travel directly to ICSB in Oregon, have the dog's collected there where the semen is first observed for it's motility and a number count is done, morphality and abnormalities of sperm if any are noted and recorded, a count for vials (number of breedings) given by the dog is noted for each collection and semen is then immediately frozen.  Semen sample from the collection is then thawed out, with another count done on that same sperm collection done for motility -- post thaw, which is typically slightly lower motility than that of the semen before being frozen and then thawed. 
Prior to collecting each separate dog,  I am asked by the collection facility to fill out paperwork requied to be maintained by them, the collection and storage facility, (as required by AKC and other registries),  with the dog's full name, my name as owner, his AKC number, along with copies of my AKC registration paperwork as proof that he is my dog and his registration numbers are correct...this is their file requirement, at least for the first collection for each dog.  
It is a different procedure if you are collecting a dog that is not owned by you.  You must have forms signed by the owner that they are giving permission for you to collect their stud dog, and that you have been granted ownership of the semen from said collection.  WIthin this collection should be specified that you will then own the COLLECTION (several breedings all of whicih will be yours) or one collection to be used for ONE BREEDING..for which there will only be the one litter registration granted from that collection.

 

 

Again...these are requirements for collecting stud dogs for purposes of registering the litters with AKC or other registry.
Anyone can bring in an animal, have it collected and store semen.  IT is their semen, and they can use it as they see fit. 
But they cannot register litters from it without documentation of registration,  ownership of dog/and or permission being granted for the use of other than their own dog.

Nope - but we can agree to disagree.  akc requires the signature of the owner of the semen, the vet does not have to require anything other than payment for the collection/storage and the owner of the semen can register litters with akc.

molly

Molly, are you telling us that you have a vet/clinic that will collect/store semen on ANY dog that comes thru the door, and does not require any signatures from the dog's AKC registered owner?
All you need to bring is $$$?

Hey Jean, can I borrow Lord and Dino for a couple of weeks??
There's this dog show back east... I'll even show them for free.....




SERIOUSLY....
What Molly says is true... ALL YOU NEED ON THE AKC LITTER REGISTRATION FORM IS THE SEMEN OWNER'S SIGNATURE.

BUT.. to get to the step where you OWN the semen that was collected.. and want to SIGN on AKC forms as OWNER of the semen..
YOU HAVE TO HAVE (or the VET has to have) written PERMISSION from the REGISTERED OWNER(s) OF THE DOG (there may be MORE than ONE registered owner!!)

nothing like that with any forms that I've ever filled out for any stud dog collected for freezing at this VERY well-known and well-respected repro vet that I use for freezing/storing/shipping.  "sorry" - yes I agree this seems to be a "loophole".  But, the vet does require dna #/copy of dna certification, along with two pictures of the dog and all akc documentation ie registration number, DOB etc.  so the dog is who you say the dog is.  But as for ownership of the semen - the owner of the semen is not necessarily the owner of the dog.  and since akc does not require the owner of the dogs' signature but instead only the semen owner's signature, yes it does work that way for akc registration.

I also know this is true because BEFORE I got the POA for breeding one of the two stud dogs I don't own, I had already had him collected for freezing, no signature from the owner and I could have used his semen at any time (the ownership was a complete mess so that was the plan, to use the semen if I couldn't get the POA to use him naturally) - then the POA came through so I was able to use him for natural breeding so the frozen semen can be used later when I choose to (as semen owner), with or without the POA.

molly

I suppose, that if the true owner of the stud dog realizes that someone has collected the dog and is using the semen for litters/selling semen without permission - then the owner could put a stop to that with a simple call to AKC.  In my case, there was not a problem with either owner in my collecting/using their stud dogs or freezing the semen for use later and I certainly did nothing "sneaky" in my case.

molly

also, with ANY stud dog, the akc only requires ONE owner signature for any litter registration application, whether it's the stud dogs' owner or semen owner.  If the dog is co-owned, they only require ONE signature from ONE of the owners.  For the female on the other hand, all owners' signatures are required.

molly

All of the clinics I have dealt with out west have similar requirements; copies of registration papers, DNA profile, tattoo/microchip, paperwork to fill in.. but definitely signature of stud owner.
In contrast, the clinics I have used did not require any photos.

(Perhaps that is why your clinic is so popular and well known!!)


I think your clinic/vet knows and trusts you.. and probably would not be so quick to do the same if I showed up there with a dog I did not own.


I, too, believed that only one owner's signature of a stud dog was needed for any AKC matter.. but clearly, they have different requirements when it comes to frozen semen and its disbursement (related to AKC registration.)

Look at the link and section of the AKC website that I referred to previously.. specifically the part in red letters...

All sire owners must sign the form transferring ownership of the frozen semen.

How do you explain that?? it is the only one part that mentions OWNERS (plural).

So I, too, have learned something new.


It really behooves one to really check up on these small details when purchasing such things...
And no, I don't think a simple phone call to AKC would fix a disagreement.. unfortunately..

I am still dealing with AKC on a different matter.. involving forgery... that has never been settled to my satisfaction.

Molly,
WHile I do agree that on the litter application form,  for registration of a litter having been produced by means of artifical insem using frozen semen, this form requires only the signature of the semen owner. 

However, being the collector of the dog by taking the dog to collect and store frozen semen from said dog,  you have unfortunately skipped the required step, as per the requirements of the collector of the dog,  of having the authorization of the stud owner's permission and signature at the point of having the stud collected. 
This is the responsibility of the collector (now owner of the semen) to document and prove that there was permission granted to collect the dog owned by someone other than yourself, and to have their signature for same.

This is on the bottom of that same pdf file, page 4, under the heading :

Regulations Applying to the Registration of Litters Produced
Through Artificial Insemination Using Frozen Semen 

Regulations Applying to the Registration of Litters Produced
Through Artificial Insemination Using Frozen Semen   These Regulations shall supplement the “Regulations for Record Keeping and Identification of Dogs.” Each person engaged in the collection, freezing, storage, shipping and insemination of frozen semen shall follow such practices and maintain such records as will preclude any possibility of error in identification of any individual dog or doubt as to the parentage of any dog or litter.
To provide a source of reference for the registration of litters of purebred dogs produced by artificial insemination, using frozen semen, applications for which have been made, or may later be made, to the American Kennel Club, and to assure the accuracy of such applications, certain minimum records must be kept.
All required records shall be made immediately, when dog has been delivered for the purpose of semen collection, at time of shipment of frozen semen, and insemination of same; shall be kept on forms devoted to that exclusive purpose; and shall be consecutive, accurate and up-to-date. Such records shall be maintained for a period of no less than five years from the point in time when the last of the frozen semen from a given stud dog is used.   A. Dog Identification:
Breed
AKC registered name and number of stud dog
Sex, color, markings of stud dog (include tattoo, if any)
Color photographs of stud dog (full front and full side views)
Date of birth
AKC registered name and number of sire and dam
Name and address of owner of stud dog
(AKC suggests that collector also keep a health work-up of stud dog as
part of stud dog’s identification)   B. Collection of Semen:
Date on which stud dog was received
Owner’s authorization of semen collection
Date semen collected, frozen and stored
Number of breeding units stored
Form of semen storage (Pellets, Ampules, Vials, Straws, etc.)
Container in which each breeding unit is stored shall be indelibly imprinted
to show: Breed, AKC registration number of stud dog, Date semen collected