Top GSD Showline Males Currently Prepotent For Protection - Page 1

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by Rass on 26 November 2011 - 12:11

We have a long and interesting thread on Top Showlines that have produced good working dogs.  Now let's take it a step further.  What top show line males (conformation) are CURRENTLY standing that are putting work ethic (nerve/courage, confidence) on their get? 

IOW's Show Line males currently standing who are routinely passing strong work ethic through to offspring who are consistent in working with the helper and titling. 

A male that is currently doing great work is not necessarily a male who is routinely passing it on to his get.





Beardog

by Beardog on 26 November 2011 - 12:11

where's the thread on this?

Slamdunc

by Slamdunc on 26 November 2011 - 14:11

I think you would need to define what you consider to be a "strong work ethic?". It seems many people have different definitions of what good working ability is. After reading the bragging on the NASS show thread, then seeing the videos of the protection work it is clear my definition of good working ability is different than many others. I think this is a very good question though and can't wait to see the responses. Since the female passes 1/2 of the genetics you may want inquire about females as well.

by Blitzen on 26 November 2011 - 17:11

Rass, you will probably get better responses if you repost this to the conformation forum.

Red Sable

by Red Sable on 26 November 2011 - 17:11

Blitzen I disagree.   I like this kind of topic, and think many will miss it if it is in the conformation forum, that is to do with conformation after all.
 I'm sure everyone with a showline reads the other forums too.

Dog1

by Dog1 on 26 November 2011 - 17:11

Which ones are current? That's difficult to say since it takes a few litters and a few years to really see the pattern. I suspect the descendents of those identified would be a good place to start. Seems to reason the trait is more likely to be passed on than created from where it never was in the first place. Don't forget the mother can pass the ability too.

There could be another Enzo out there that pops up out of the blue and goes on to be a producer. By the time there are enough examples to be recognized, they will be out of production.

djc

by djc on 26 November 2011 - 19:11

The other 2 threads - NASS and GSDs W/G Protection phase have some of what you need.
Even though some like to pick out the worst bite work at NASS and complain about it, instead of highlighting the good ones, there were a couple strong dogs/bitches there. INCLUDING THE USA/WORLD UNIVERSAL SIEGER 2011!!! No one can say his bite work was bad! But Randy is right, what we want to see is the consistent production of those same working traits before we can tell you if the dog/bitch can help improve working abilities. That's mostly because of the old standby that: A good trainer can make a bad dog look good and a bad trainer can make a good dog look bad. It's not an easy task to look at all the factors that one needs to consider, in WL or SL. AND it takes years to see. What further complicates it is, for those that have good working SLs, is finding owners for the progeny who care to train correctly and dedicate years to the training and titling. THAT'S the really hard part. You just have to get out there yourself and see what you can see on each dog you think you might be interested in. That's your best bet, then you can judge the dog and it's progeny/training/successes yourself.
Debby

CMathis

by CMathis on 26 November 2011 - 20:11

Hello Everyone,

I think this will be an interesting thread.  There is something that we need to keep in mind.  It is not fair to put all of the production of working ablility on the male.  If he is not bred to strong bitches there will not be much if any improvement in the progeny.  I think that temperment and working ability has to come from both the father and mother line.


Best Regards,
Cheryl


by Rass on 26 November 2011 - 21:11

Well, here is what I was thinking even as I posted the question...

First thought was that by the time the progeny show up with working qualities, the sire will be getting along in years.  This was mentioned.  

Second was that training is a factor (but less so if the dogs are really 'showing up' with the protection work). 

Third was the lack of puppy buyers willing to take a dog out and show it and train it (most puppies go to pet homes).  (So folks, if you find a puppy buyer that WILL take the dog out and try to train it and title it, treat that buyer like gold!). 

Fourth was that a dog that does really show up and work the helper will likely be of good lines and be exposed to bitches who do not show up or show up poorly.  

My experience is mostly with horses.. and prepotency of a stallion can be all over the map.  Seattle Slew (for instance) passed on his ability to run fast and turn left very well.  Too well as today most Thoroughbreds are line bred on Seattle Slew.  Niatross, OTOH, was a famous winning harness horse.  He could not pass on that speed to his offspring for nothing.  Mr. San Peppy was a cutting horse and he was so prepotent in passing on "cow" that it seems he could have been bred to the neighbor's carriage horse the offspring would work cattle.  The big difference with horses is that mares have ONE foal and stallions live and often are still breeding well into their late 20's.  A popular stallion, using natural cover, can breed around 40 mares a year (some get that and turn mares away because their book fills) 

So.. for a sire to be prepotent he must generally (more than half the time) pass on a trait.  We know dogs like this.. the offspring all have the same "look" (for instance.. the same head structure).  Understanding how the above factors can muddy the water the question is are there any who are passing on the protection genetics more often than not, even when exposed to less than stellar bitches when it comes to protection? 












djc

by djc on 26 November 2011 - 21:11

Good summary Rass!
Although I need to say that just because you see a dog that brings it to the helper does not mean he has the lines behind nor does it mean that that dog will pass it along. The problem from just going by what you see is you don't know what it took to bring that dog to where it is. If it needed tons of hours and overcoming problem after problem, then the final product that you see, will most likely not pass on anything but problems to it's offspring. That goes for both WL and SL. Many WL dogs did not pass on their fantastic working traits. Why is that? Could have been this very thing! Tons of training by a super trainer to make the dog what it is and then trainers/handlers that aren't as good can't get the same out of the offspring. See what I mean? It's really hard to sift through all of that! But it can be done. Most by watching the progeny, knowing who they were trained by AND the blood behind them.
Being rephrased like that, I can tell you I am keeping my eye on Griff Temar. He has the lines behind him of the old producers and his own bite work is fantastic! I would guess he would be one that is going to be shown to be a producer himself.
I have used Kaluv vom Whirling Thunder and that is where I got my super working female that I have such high hopes for! He is a Triumphs Gucci son and DOES pass on high work ethic.
I guess we need to clarify if we are also including dogs/bitches from around the world?
If so I would also include Tiras Roten Feld for a proven work producer with the lines behind him. He is getting older now so time is short to take advantage of his prowess. Although I can tell you I will be doing just that in the near future as well as Griff! Although Griff being young, Tiras will be first on my list.
Debby 

PS... does anyone have the contact information on Griff's owner?





 


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