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by Ace952 on 17 March 2012 - 00:03
Wow....11 pages of this. Well it was a good thread for a short while.
I know one thing about being on forums......when the mob mentality hits on one person...sooner or later other people actuallyfeel sympathy and support them....lol
I think after reading and listening to numerous breeders on this site...MANY have kennel blindness is some form or fashion. I ahv seen worst things done by some breeders.
I know one thing about being on forums......when the mob mentality hits on one person...sooner or later other people actuallyfeel sympathy and support them....lol
I think after reading and listening to numerous breeders on this site...MANY have kennel blindness is some form or fashion. I ahv seen worst things done by some breeders.
by Slamdunc on 17 March 2012 - 00:03
I'm an animal lover and I've seen some ugly German Shepherds. Masculine looking bitches and dogs with poor conformation and coloring. However, I do like a dog that works and don't care what it looks like when it has drive and intensity.
by darylehret on 17 March 2012 - 01:03
Just so you folks know, the minimum age for breeding (as per the SV, of which I am in no way affiliated) is not 24 months, it's 20. You responsible expert breeeders should know that.
When Nyx was first bred, she was 19 months and 10 days old. So "too young" or "not yet an adult" doesn't hold much water with me. Nature does as nature intends to do, and three weeks early as per some "official" organization I have little respect for, has no bearing on the decisions I make in my breeding program. She is a VERY fit female, with VERY good maternal instincts, mentally stable and mature. And hardly cares how pretty she's perceived.
When Nyx was first bred, she was 19 months and 10 days old. So "too young" or "not yet an adult" doesn't hold much water with me. Nature does as nature intends to do, and three weeks early as per some "official" organization I have little respect for, has no bearing on the decisions I make in my breeding program. She is a VERY fit female, with VERY good maternal instincts, mentally stable and mature. And hardly cares how pretty she's perceived.
by Slamdunc on 17 March 2012 - 01:03
Ace,
Sometimes people who express themselves as "experts" get called out on the carpet, or an internet forum. Then people actually see the so called experts for who they actually are, not just their marketing, BS and smoke and mirrors.
What could be worse than breeding dogs with out any x rays or any registration? Even puppy mills and most BYBs register their dogs. Otherwise it is just a mix, can't really be called a GSD. I suppose the person that knowingly breeds a dog with hip issues and other health problems and then denies it would be worse.
Sometimes people who express themselves as "experts" get called out on the carpet, or an internet forum. Then people actually see the so called experts for who they actually are, not just their marketing, BS and smoke and mirrors.
What could be worse than breeding dogs with out any x rays or any registration? Even puppy mills and most BYBs register their dogs. Otherwise it is just a mix, can't really be called a GSD. I suppose the person that knowingly breeds a dog with hip issues and other health problems and then denies it would be worse.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 March 2012 - 01:03
Quote :
Have you any experience with any of this ? I am curious, not just of you, but of all the people on here making statements about what does or doesn't work in breeding.
24 months to be fully mature..... physically, so really you are only looking to make sure the dog looks good.
What is this 24 months based on ? Anyone know ?
So, if dog/bitch A is 19 months old, what is the likely hood of a drastic change by 24 months, physically ?
I do not know the answers to some of these questions, as so many dogs are so different. I have had many many dogs that were fully mature, as in they did not grow any taller or wider after 15 or 16 months. Most of my dogs did get a little wider after that age, but breeding would alter that somehow ? Where do you find that research ?
You are not on board with breeding 1,2 or 2,2. What is this based on ? You have had a dog that was bred like that and there was something wrong ?
Go look at http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=389152. He would have never existed with your breeding plan.
Some of these breeding theories that I see here are only aimed at THIS LITTER HERE. Nothing for the future, which shows why we do not have any great GSD stud dogs bred here in the states. Every breeding is aimed at THIS LITTER, and nothing is thought of for the future.
But, that is why most of you are not breeders. No idea what you are doing commenting on breeding. You just have no idea.
| I'm not on board with the breeding before having hips & elbows officially cleared; I'm not on board with breeding animals that are too young to be eligible for a breed survey, as the entire REASON for the minimum age of 24 months is to allow sufficient time for the animal to FULLY MATURE and make sure they still meet the standard and are worthy of being bred as far as temperament and health are concerned; I'm not on board with intentionally doing 1-2 breedings (father/daughter, mother/son) or 2-2 breedings (siblings). |
Have you any experience with any of this ? I am curious, not just of you, but of all the people on here making statements about what does or doesn't work in breeding.
24 months to be fully mature..... physically, so really you are only looking to make sure the dog looks good.
What is this 24 months based on ? Anyone know ?
So, if dog/bitch A is 19 months old, what is the likely hood of a drastic change by 24 months, physically ?
I do not know the answers to some of these questions, as so many dogs are so different. I have had many many dogs that were fully mature, as in they did not grow any taller or wider after 15 or 16 months. Most of my dogs did get a little wider after that age, but breeding would alter that somehow ? Where do you find that research ?
You are not on board with breeding 1,2 or 2,2. What is this based on ? You have had a dog that was bred like that and there was something wrong ?
Go look at http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=389152. He would have never existed with your breeding plan.
Some of these breeding theories that I see here are only aimed at THIS LITTER HERE. Nothing for the future, which shows why we do not have any great GSD stud dogs bred here in the states. Every breeding is aimed at THIS LITTER, and nothing is thought of for the future.
But, that is why most of you are not breeders. No idea what you are doing commenting on breeding. You just have no idea.
by Slamdunc on 17 March 2012 - 02:03
Jeff,
Your breeding program and Daryl's program has produced so many fantastic dogs. So many top ring, herding, Police, and SchH dogs. Exactly how many top dogs is it now? Between the two of you it is so hard to keep up with all of the accomplishments. You are the correct one to be commenting on what top breeders should do or are doing.
Your breeding program and Daryl's program has produced so many fantastic dogs. So many top ring, herding, Police, and SchH dogs. Exactly how many top dogs is it now? Between the two of you it is so hard to keep up with all of the accomplishments. You are the correct one to be commenting on what top breeders should do or are doing.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 March 2012 - 03:03
I have two two GSD litters Jim. I guess you didn't pay attention to what I said. The oldest litter turned 1 in January. I kept back some females. The other litter is 6 months old. Sorry that they are not international champions yet.
by hexe on 17 March 2012 - 03:03
Just because I don't breed GSDs now does not mean I've never bred dogs, Jeff. I suspect it will surprise you to learn that not only did I breed at one time--for a span of ten years--but my focus was *entirely* on working ability, with no concern as to physical appearance at all so long as the dog's structure was suitable for the work. We bred registered dogs, and we also bred the crosses that are commonly used in that particular sport, where accurate records of the lineage of the crossbreds are maintained with no less attention to detail than we gave to the pedigrees for the registered dogs.
By the time a dog is two years of age, *most likely* you'll have sussed out most medical quirks, including allergies to this or that--though you won't be able to rule out epilepsy until the dog is five years of age or older, and it's just not practical to wait that long to identify whether or not you've got a breeding candidate or not. Waiting to breed a dog until it's 24 months also allows you sufficient time to really test the dog in whatever work it's destined for, both physically and mentally, and shows you whether the dog can handle what you're doing with it for the long haul, or if it's going to break down in some way along the line.
Yes, I have had dogs that were 1-2 and 2-2, some of them intentionally bred that way, and some which were said to be the result of accidental breedings. Some were phenomenal, and some were the stuff of nightmares. And yes, without that kind of inbreeding, some good dogs in the breed would never have come to be--I could probably tot up a lengthy list of Haus Ming dogs, for instance, as that breeder has done quite a bit of inbreeding on Mink. The trouble with inbreeding this way is that when it works, it's great, but when it doesn't, it's generally more of a train-wreck than just an 'eh' litter that didn't click, because you're amplifying all of the genetics in play, not just a few. It's easy to point to the instances where the inbreeding worked, but no one keeps records of the times when it didn't.
As for looking to the future, instead of at this particular litter of darylehret's, for me that picture is one and the same. Without the appropriate health certifications for the breeding stock, and a commitment to address *that* before any breedings take place, not after, I fail to see how this 'program' can be of any benefit to anyone or anything.
By the time a dog is two years of age, *most likely* you'll have sussed out most medical quirks, including allergies to this or that--though you won't be able to rule out epilepsy until the dog is five years of age or older, and it's just not practical to wait that long to identify whether or not you've got a breeding candidate or not. Waiting to breed a dog until it's 24 months also allows you sufficient time to really test the dog in whatever work it's destined for, both physically and mentally, and shows you whether the dog can handle what you're doing with it for the long haul, or if it's going to break down in some way along the line.
Yes, I have had dogs that were 1-2 and 2-2, some of them intentionally bred that way, and some which were said to be the result of accidental breedings. Some were phenomenal, and some were the stuff of nightmares. And yes, without that kind of inbreeding, some good dogs in the breed would never have come to be--I could probably tot up a lengthy list of Haus Ming dogs, for instance, as that breeder has done quite a bit of inbreeding on Mink. The trouble with inbreeding this way is that when it works, it's great, but when it doesn't, it's generally more of a train-wreck than just an 'eh' litter that didn't click, because you're amplifying all of the genetics in play, not just a few. It's easy to point to the instances where the inbreeding worked, but no one keeps records of the times when it didn't.
As for looking to the future, instead of at this particular litter of darylehret's, for me that picture is one and the same. Without the appropriate health certifications for the breeding stock, and a commitment to address *that* before any breedings take place, not after, I fail to see how this 'program' can be of any benefit to anyone or anything.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 March 2012 - 03:03
So, you are going after Daryl because you would have to confront these people personally ?
http://houston.ebayclassifieds.com/dogs-puppies/?q=german+shepherd+dog&catId=100126
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1aO7l2uB4I
http://houston.ebayclassifieds.com/dogs-puppies/?q=german+shepherd+dog&catId=100126
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1aO7l2uB4I
by Slamdunc on 17 March 2012 - 03:03
But, that is why most of you are not breeders. No idea what you are doing commenting on breeding. You just have no idea.
I was wondering what makes you a qualified breeder with two GSD litters?
Sorry that they are not international champions yet.
No need to apologize. I doubt they ever will be. It's not like you have let me down, my expectation level is very low.
I was wondering what makes you a qualified breeder with two GSD litters?
Sorry that they are not international champions yet.
No need to apologize. I doubt they ever will be. It's not like you have let me down, my expectation level is very low.
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