Mr. Donald asked me a difficult question - Page 3

Hi Abby,

My comment was she is one of the best movers ever, only in regards to movement itself as we were only discussing fore-front reach and front-under reach. I agree with you that her hock lands in full of its length on the ground in full rear under reach and that is not correct. And I still insist that her movement is not only good but rather very good in regards to distance she covers in single trot and I could be wrong. She has one major draw back in that specific gaiting and that is the lifting up of her front fore leg and I hope that is only caused by the helper not due to something else.
I am not judging her allover balance, angulations etc etc, but her movement looks extraordinary to me, so flashy (I think you say it like that !).

Ibrahim

Hi Ibrahim,

Yes, flashy is how you say it!

I see what you mean that you are mainly referring to the front reach and front assembly.

While I think it is all a matter of balance, and this is where the rear cannot be taken out of the equation, I hope I didn't digress too much from the original question, and I will let those who are able to comment on that do so! 

But I still think Dingo the better mover LOL !

Oh, I was going through what I wrote and in the post where I put the importance of front assembly proportions and angles in sequence, point number 4 needs to be corrected 

it should read angle of front upper arm

After s certain time I can not make edit to a certain post !!

Typing corrections:

Let us have a look at above bones trace



I drew these lines between the various bones using the above mentioned directions by Mr. Donald on how to represent the lines and angles of bones. Mr. Donald or any of the experts might give us the exact angles if exact data is availavle, for now I will give estimates, angle of front upper arm has increased a lot, almost doubled, while ideal in standing position is 53 degrees it is now about 90 degrees (excuse my bad line representing the front upper arm). Angle A which is 45 degrees has become approximately 55. Unluckily I do not have a standing picture of the above dog which is Rommel's Jasemin to estimate its true A angle in standing, but let us assume it was close to ideal say 50 degrees and that means the change in this angle is 5 degrees which represents about 10% from original while standing.
If we also assume angle B was close to ideal say 60 degrees then the change is 30 degrees which is  50% from original, comparatively change in angle A is minor, therefore for simplicity of understanding while considering fore- front reach assume the shoulder blade is fixed.
Now ideal angle C in standing is 180 degrees and in well conformed GSD it is usual, now in full extension  it is approximately 125 degrees which means there is a decrease by 55 degrees.

Gina - very nice bitch, pasterns! For another time perhaps.

Louis

Oh pardone me, I see I did not talk about the pasterns




I see the pasterns did not change a lot from original in standing position 22 degrees from the vertical passing through the fore leg joint and then pastern joint, that is no major change in the joint angle itself. In the figure angle D is approximately equivalent to 125 (angle C at the moment) - 22 degrees, result angle is to the imaginary vertical as that in standing position, but the effect of any increase in pastern length results in the most effect among all bones of fore assembly on the front reach as it is almost in same drection of fore-front reach direction.
Please no one should get me wrong and think I am suggesting a certain increase in a specific bone length or proportion with another bone to increase front-fore reach, no I am only analyzing each bones effect on total reach, as it is beyomd me what really happens when certain proportion is decreased or increased on dog's balance and effective trot, it needs long time judging dogs to watch effect of these various combinations.
Please note also that above angles are not exact, they are estimates and in same references to the horizontal they are measuted from in standing position, shoulder angle and front upper arm angles to the horizontal, fore leg and patern angles to the vertical.


Ibrahim

Okay, I know I'm not the best writer, sometimes when I go back and read what I wrote I shake my head, here it is in Picture language 

Estimates of angles of the fore assembly in full flight



Now angle B looks less than 90, maybe closer to 85 !!

I am getting feed back that What I'm saying in all my posts which concerns mathematics isn't very clear to some, so Mr. Donald just give me sometime to rephrase what I've been saying please, and I'll do it fast.

Line WA represents the connecting line between top mid point of shoulder blade and furthest point a dog can reach in a trot (forward) with its fore leg.
Line WC represents the connecting line between top mid point of shoulder blade and furthest point a dog can reach backwards with its fore leg in a trot.
Line WB represents the height at withers of a dog, actually a little less as it starts at the top mid point of the shoulder blade which is a bit lower than the withers. It is vertical.
Line BA= fore front reach, maximum distance a dog can reach forward with his fore leg in a trot.
Line BC= Fore-under reach, maximum distance a dog can reach backward with its fore leg in a trot.
WAC is a triangle, AB being a vertical divider.
Our concern is limited to the smaller triangle WAB
Our front reach is line BA, the longer this line is the bigger/longer the trot is. The longer lines WA and or WB the longer ultimately the connecting line BA which is the front reach.
Now line WB is limited for us by the standard, so in this discussion we need only to know that the higher the dog the more front reach it can achieve. In mathematics it is difficult to deal with three variables, so we forget about line WB and consider it constant.
We limit our discussion to lines WA and line BA and our triangle WAB, the longer line WA the longer line BA (front reach) becomes.
Line WA represents what positions the the bones of the fore assembly bones stop at and their lengths at the moment of full open/front reach in a trot in forward movement of the fore leg.