American x West German showline crosses? - Page 2

Bill Leonard of Estahaus Kennels in the USA has probably tried this kind of cross-breeding the most. He has been in GSDs for over forty years, he has been an AKC judge for American Shepherds, and has attended the SiegerHapzuchtschau in W. Germany for 39 successive years. He has imported a fair number of W. German high showline GSDs and finished some in the American AKC showring, quite a feat in and of itself since the only thing usually judged is the flying trot at fast sidegait on a tight lead (only a few AKC judges insist on "loose lead" gaiting. He also now films the SiegerHapzuchtschau each year and sells copies on DVD. The one's I bought from him were well done and crystal clear. I once asked him his opinion on breeding American Shepherd females to W. German import studs. He said he had a substantial amount of experience with this and found that the Lance based American AKC GSD was so inbred that there was a "genetic depression" that could not be overcome in even 5 generations of this breeding to W. German studs. He said the offspring still carried the American GSD looks and traits. So he no longer does this and owns and breeds only the best W. Import high showline dogs with the best (correct) sidegaits and excellent temperaments. You can view his life work in breeding at his web site www.estahaus.com . I always liked his dogs because they had good movement, good temperaments and were structured, pigmented and proportioned properly.

While it is true that with sufficient patience and skill any animal can be trained, that is little reason to breed such an animal. In circumventing nature in favor of our supposed superior rationale we better be sure that our choices are for the better and not just more dogs. Sadly many of the so-called American pet lines are not even suitable as pets because of unstable temperaments. On the other hand, a breeding program with stringent standards of structure and temperament may reach its highest goals infrequently, but will more regularly meet with moderate success. Those dogs that do not meet the requirements for showing and breeding make pets fit for a king.

My opinon, AM bred showlines (AKC type) have been bred for generations without working titles or proof of temperament. I wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole, sorry AM bred folks JMO. HD is a problem in every type GSD, but at least in Germany a Hip cert is required, providing generations of proven/certified hips. People who breed to the same standard here in the US with German/European lines also follow the same suit from what I've seen. Some AM bred showline breeders are somewhat making an effort to OFA their breeding stock, but its unlikely you'll find every dog in their pedigree OFA'd. If you want to introduce new blood, do your homework, with a little effort there's no doubt you'll be able to find an outcross (or no common ancestory within the first 5 generations) from German/European lines. Yes it may be difficult but they are out there. OR if you really want to make it easy, cross German/Euro show with German/Euro working lines.

Well, just on an anecdotal level, one of my dogs is a 1/2 W. German high line, 1/4 Czech working line (Titus and Baron), 1/4 American line cross. He is retired dual-purpose K9, strong as a mule, and very civil; the only problem he's ever given me is that he is dog-aggressive towards other males and particularly detests small dogs. Other than that, he's a great dog. As far as appearance goes, he looks more Czech than either German or American- big dog with a big head, large paws, and thick, bicolor coat.

I will agree there is good and bad in everything. I'm not name calling I'm hopefully educating someone who is in the market for a dog and is considering American bred dogs. I've owned them all. Ger Show lines and Am lines reinvent the breed to better suit people who want dogs to look pretty. Who with half a brain would buy a dog that can be a potential liabily that was bred for its angled a-- and plush coat and NO emphasis on Stability!!! I was at a show and saw so many hackles up and just lack of nerve it was amazing these dog are expensive and bred on top of it!!Show dogs are all about money not quality dogs!German shepherds are working dogs NOT show dogs. Martin Donaldson, you are wrong! Those nice civil dogs you speak about are frigtened for thier lives, its not confidence and strong civil drive.I train police dogs. And donation dogs are used is departments who dont have funding,not beacause they are quality!!!! This risks officers lives with inferior dogs.Its a huge problem! GSDfan is on the money,well said. Do some of you even know who MAx is?? The founder of the breed???? Keep a shepherd a working dog....one of his last words.

This discussion isn't about show and tell, Its not about...."I had a good american dog"or I had a good show dog that was a good worker. This is insignificant. We are talking generation to generation, if you had a good one you were lucky and leave it at that.

There are some Ursus-free dogs out there. But it does seem that it gets more difficult to "get away" from certain dogs the farther back you go in a pedigree - for example, I think it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find any showline dog that is Canto or Quando free. German bloodlines based upon Mutz Pelztierfarm (for example, Dux de Cuatro Flores)and Marko Cellerland are still around, although it seems that the Marko bloodline is very hard to find. A good resource for checking bloodlines is the gsddata.com site that X man posted - there is a "bloodline" feature that provides color-coded fatherline summaries for each grandparent. I don't know how many dogs are in their database and you do have to provide the dog's full name - for example, "Ursus Batu" gets you nowhere, you have to enter "Ursus von Batu." And be forewarned that you can easily lose a couple of hours poking around in there without realizing it, like I did the other day while checking out the bloodlines in my Dux de Cuatro Flores son out of Lailana vom Kirschental, all the way back to Immo Hasenfang and Rolf Osnabrucker Land in the 1940s and beyond.

There is NO reason to introduce American lines into German lines- what so ever!!! Why would take something good and put in crap. Doesn't make sense. Now, if you had American lines and wanted to introduce German lines, that would make more sense. Though I wouldn't, it's more logical.

I have done the cross. I started with an AKC Covy Tucker Hill showline and went to a German dog. The results were wonderful. The dogs were incredibly easy to train and willing to please. They did not have off the wall drives but could work.The second breeding which was still basically 50-50 gave me the best dog in the world (at least for me). I kept him as a pet, he had no formal training except a little tracking as a puppy. When he turned 2 years and OFA'd Excellent I began his Schutzhund career in August. By fall we had our BH. By the following June with 3 months off during the winter because of bad weather and road conditions, we had our SchH 1 with a 87-71-88 P. He was excellent around people but protective and civil. He could go to the vet with her small dogs yapping at him and never a problem, also she said she heard he was very defensive but she could not understand it because he had never even growled at her. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/471499.html A repeat breeding produced another SchH1 also. I have had all German dogs from DDR (Lord)to west show x working lines also. But to me the Am.X Ger. were different, special is a better word. I think there are good and bad in all the lines. The overangulated rears in American to the roach back in German show lines, the timid temperments to the sharp over driven dogs that are not safe to be around. "Do right", I can give you a couple of kennels breeding the cross now, if your interested you can pick their brain.

"Instead, it is, let me ruin your dog not of the bloodlines I like so I can talk you into buying a good one from me or my associates. If it was just honest training and friendship with everyone working together to train some dogs, these kind of ego statements would not come up." You hit the nail on the head with that one! I have seen this more times than I care to count. Isn't it so sad that this is commonplace in the sport? But that may be another thread. Obviously if a TD has a breeding program and sees a dedicated handler - better yet dedicated and skilled - he would be interested in placing a dog from his own breeding with someone in his training group. Nothing wrong with that. However, what irks me to no end is to see people 'working' it - your dog can't work, your dog can't work, - putting all sorts of crap on a dog that isn't called for, and then announcing "we have a super litter coming that can take you to the nationals." If someone shows up and says "I want to title my dog" it probably means "MY DOG", as opposed to "find me a dog that fits your training method". But back to breeding ideas -