American x West German showline crosses? - Page 5

So it's straight from The Captain's lips to your ears, LuvCzechDawgz? Then riddle me this: regarding protection work, The Captain said "The motto for work on man, of any and every description is firstly, obedience, secondly, obedience and thirdly, lastly and always, OBEDIENCE." Yet when I visit your website and view the protection videos of your newest dog, here's what I see: a dog going apeshit over a guy swinging a stick who is at least 100 feet away when the video starts while restrained on leash with two hands by his handler. Enquiring minds want to know why the dog isn't off-leash and calmly sitting at heel until the command to bite is given? In othr words, WHERE IS THE OBEDIENCE? The working-lines folks always talk about the sort of liability the fear-driven unstable American-lines dog creates...but can you trust that dog not to go after a teenager who swings a wiffle-ball bat within twenty feet of him? I also saw videos of one of your females doing some nice blindwork...but when an object was thrown for her, she retrieved it and ran right past the handler. Again The Captain wants to know...WHERE IS THE OBEDIENCE? Which brings me to this: from where I sit, you may well be on the same path as so many of the American-lines breeders are: concentrating so heavily on one aspect of the dog - in your case civil aggression and in theirs fleeting side-gait - to the possible detriment of other equally important aspects. Stephanitz did not advocate for man-eaters in the absence of all other qualities - if that were all that mattered, we could all just forget about our GSDs and get far more efficient 600 lb. Siberian tigers (of course, the working-lines folks would probably opt for ligers and tell us that tigers were "shit"). What he did advocate for was the total dog, and it seems to me that in some ways many of the working-lines folks aren't really doing all that much better at this than the American-lines breeders they so love to sneer at.

First off "Enquiring" minds (p59...)you're the only enquiring mind. Everyone else is on topic here. Secondly, the video was shot in Belgium so ask them why they shot the video on a dog that had obedience. As for the guy swinging a stick, it was a simulated video reflecting civil work with the dog. Sure you don't know this but solid dogs have an on/off switch. I don't think the American/WG showline crosses even come with those. Something like assembly not included... LOL Thirdly, the female you saw has obedience. Again these videos were shot in Slovakia before I got her. Both did ALL obedience for me @ ALL times. Sure dogs are not robots and it's not going to be 100% perfect but I'm sure you know that if you have any of those American/WG showline crosses. So before you go try to critique something that has NO RELEVANCY to this topic get the facts together. What on earth does that have to do with the fact that these American x West German showline crosses are nothing but garbage in most cases??? Let's get back on topic here. If anyone breeding these things can tell us a few traits they would bring to the table, then I'm all ears ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW :-D

>>Sure you don't know this but solid dogs have an on/off switch. I'm well aware of the "on/off switch." What I see on that video is a dog who is "on" the entire time - in fairness, I don't know what commands he was given before the video rolled, and I'd guess your intent is to show potental buyers of his pups how "hard" he is. Myself, I'd be more impressed to see a video showing the switch going on and off, but maybe that's just me. As for "relevancy," the issue is plenty relevant. You've invoked selected passages from Stephanitz to indict an entire country's breeding lines. I was simply asking you "where is the total dog" that Stephanitz actually advocated in what you're showing on your website. >>What on earth does that have to do with the fact that these American x West German showline crosses are nothing but garbage in most cases??? Your saying they are mostly "garbage" doesn't make it a fact. Seems to me the posters who actually did this themselves or spoke with others who did have reported mixed results - some good, some bad, some inconsistent.

"Your saying they are mostly "garbage" doesn't make it a fact." No it makes it my opinion P59!!! It's time for bed. You sound sleepy :-) LOL

And I will say this: anyone who wonders why Schutzhund has never really taken off in the US has merely to read snooty comments about "garbage" and "shit" dogs to see why that might be. Strange as it may seem, most people don't want to waste their time spending hour after hour with headcase know-it-alls who'd rather tell them their dogs are crap than help them train the dog to whatever is potential might be. I'm not unrealistic and will readily concede that a European working lines pup is much more likely to have the characteristics necessary to perform well in Schutzhund. And it may well be that blending West German showlines with American showlines won't work that well. But that doesn't mean American lines are by nature absolutely incapable of doing the work or being competent protection dogs.

It is time for bed...but this is what you said: What on earth does that have to do with the fact that these American x West German showline crosses are nothing but garbage in most cases???

Nevermind P59... :: sighs:: The sleep comment was a joke, cheer up ;-)

LuvCzechDawgs, I do not intend for this reply to be interpreted as a snap to your post as I usually enjoy your posts and I think that we are not so far apart in our thoughts pertaining to the dog. The prejudice of that I speak is when one makes the determination that a dog is unsuitable by merely reading the bloodlines without examining the dog and watching the dog move and work. Are there some weak butt-ugly examples from the Ambred show-line? You bet there are. West German? Yes there again. Euro working-line dogs? Finally yes again. How many of us have read the pedigree of a nice Euro dog and said, "Well, there is dog X and dog Y all over the place with their missing tooth and questionable hips." "This dog is nothing but crap." End of story, the judgement is made and the verdict read without a trial. Then there are many wonderful dogs from all three (3) groups that have all of the qualities to be that everyman's dog. Are they all superstars? Of course not. Can they all do the work? Of course not. In the beginning there were two (2) dogs and two (2) bitches who progeny became all of the examples that we see today. Regardless of the type of line that one likes, this point is inescapable. The three (3) lines as we see them today are all manufactured dogs that have virtually nothing in common with the originators save for the ideal of the working foundation that made the GSD a legend worldwide. Did we lose this goal with at least one (1) of these lines? No doubt we did as we replaced it with a standard for beauty. If there is any penance offered for for Bob-O's opinions, remember that when it comes to the dogs (although he tries as hard as he can to escape) that Bob's brain is still stuck in mid-1970's Germany. Bob-O

Respectfully... May I ask, German Shepherd = German Working lines, German Show Lines, American Show Lines, American Working Lines ? All these dogs are German Shepherd ? Correct ? American Show lines did not come from Mars, They too Originated from German dogs correct ? Not trying to go off field here just trying to understand something. I have to be with Bob-O , P59 , and Do Right, here I have to beleive that we all should be getting back to the Complete GSD, A dog with integrity, beauty, grace, confidence, drive, Loyalty, Strength, Physical ability, Solid Temperament, The Complete GSD is what the originator of the breed wanted, It has always been my understanding that the "Perfect" GSD could work all day with his partner (in whatever form of work, herding, police, protection, detection, SAR, or whatever utilitarian) And then come home and be a loved family member children could fawn over and play with. I don't think he ever meant for his dogs to end up ill tempered, unreliable, crazed, over angulated, questionalbe trainability, questionable structured, dogs that could do only one thing. I have a pup that the owner was told by a sch. club that she could NOT train her dog in AKC Obedience and sch. and compete in both, My question is Why NOT ? My sch club has never tried to discourage us in any of our endeavors, Obedience, SAR, Therapy, K-9, matter of act each of those above careers are being trained in sch. as well as cross trained in all of the above. I Personally and this is MY feeling.. Think that the Complete GSD is what the founder had in mind, I personally think there are many breeders who are more consistantly breeding the complete GSD when BALANCE comes first and foremost ! Anyone who agrees... Great Anyone who Disagrees.. Great as well, we have to see the extremes of all sides and attempt to extract the best of A and the best of B and produce the balance of Both right ? Is that not what we are supposed to be doing as breeders ? Are we not supposed to be breeding the Complete package here ? I write this respectfully again with the attempt to gain knowledge from those who have learned before me. I will only add this, My dogs are a mixed of mostly German Show lines and German Working Lines, However here and there is a little AM Show Ch. as well, not much though. But I will say for Uniformity in Charachter, Temperament, Solid Structure, Confidence, Loyalty, and Trainability, I will continue with my dogs and will never look for the extreme of any lines to bring in be them GShow, AMShow, GWorking. I will continue to Balance ! Why would'nt I want a sch 3 to be able to come into my home at night sleep by or on my bed in an appropriate manner ? would I not be better protected than if my dog were in a crate or kennel if an introder made his way into my home if my dog were loose ?

LuvC I too enjoy your posts and would like to Thank You for all of the time and effort you put into education on this forum, I have seen you consistently offer your knowledge and expeirience here. Heeded or not you offer it and I just want you to know I do appreciate your efforts. Thank You !!