Dysplasia ???????? - Page 3

Many years ago I and a friend of mine who bred a fair number of litters x-rayed all our puppies starting at 4 weeks old and approx. every four weeks until 6 months old, when they were sold. The one's we kept we xrayed at one and two years old. What we found was that there were two main types of clean hips, deep socketed and shallow socketed, but both with good fit and roundness. We also found bad hips at 4 weeks old with laxity (space) in the joint, flattened head and shallow joint. When repeatedly x-rayed these basic types never changed much. The bad stayed bad and got even worse, causing some weakness and even limping at 6 months up to one to year old. The shallow stayed good as long as the puppy's exercise and weight were limited, and the dep socketed ones seemed to stay good no matter what. I have always found the Norberg angle very predictive of good GSD hip conformation, as long at the joint has good roundness. I like to see a 105 degree Norberg angle or greater. This evidence is anecdotal since we did not utilize scientific controls and data collection. But I think these conclusions are valid. I have known some breeders who insist on giving each puppy glucosamine/chondroitin in adult human dosages each day until they are at least a year old. These folks claim they do not have any hip problems as long as the puppies are not overfed or over exercised. I do not think this is a fair test since these same folks only breed OFA good to OFA good. I do know that there is significant medical research supporting the use of chondroitan as a cox2 inhibitor which can significantly prevent joint inflammation, which itself is blamed for causing joint deterioration. I never had a GSD with massive muscling (muscle mass) in the rear legs which had HD. Some vets believe that HD is secondary to neuromuscular inflammatory disease involving laxity and improper innervation of the rear assembly, accompanied by inflamation in the joint and excessive fluid pressure pushing the ball out of the socket, which causes arthritic damage. In some cases a joint that is very deep and "totally clean" is actually more restrictive in the dog's range of motion, with the shallower clean hip able to extend and follow through better, providing better sidegait. I always liked the concept of using the deep socketed one's for breeding and using the shallow socketed (but still clean) ones for show, working, pet etc. I believe that the OFA supports my view that clean GSD hips at 12-16 weks old is at least 80% predictive of the GSD living a normal life without any HD symptoms. This is why I think it is important to do early xray screening of all puppies and keeping them at least until they can be xrayed at 12 weeks old (at a minimum, preferably until 16 weeks old). Better yet for one to buy a puppy at 6 months old that is just xrayed clean.

Preston, Very interesting. Do you suppose there might be a selection for shallow sockets in the general population due to their slightly freer movement? Also did you notice any heritability to socket type?

A good friend sent this to me. This is an interesting article. The author's premise is that unilateral hip dysplaysia is always environmental. http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html Brian DeBow

Preston, excellent post. I cannot of course prove it, but I have always thought that a deeply-formed pelvic socket is the most crucial part of a good pair of hip joints. Perhaps much more crucial than the roundness of the individual acetebelum, which must each still be smooth with rounded faces. Purely from an engineering standpoint, a large socket allows room for "error", if you will, without allowing the damaging dislocation that can occur because of normal and excessive joint laxity. I also agree that the Norberg angular displacement definitely shows whether the socket is of proper construction and geometry, as related to the centreline of the pelvis. When I look at a hip x-ray from one (1) of my dogs or someone elses, the first thing that I do is try to establish centreline (difficult sometimes), then place a straightedge at the "horns" of the socket and examine first the coverage over the acetebelum, then make the angular measurement. I usually cannot really "score" the hip, but I can tell a pass from a fail with good certainty. As far as whether it is "Excellent" or "Good", well that is up to the real experts. It is of course the same way on the low end, but more difficult sometimes to determine whether the hip will pass if the socket is very shallow. One's eyes cannot be very precise, and must be a bit subjective here since this is but a one-dimensional view of the joint. I would presume that when the experts see a hip that is of a quality that is say, borderline with shallow sockets, they may look much harder for other minor abnormalities that will contribute negatively to the success of the joint. Iknow that I would, since there is less load-bearing surface available. The larger socket definitely allows the load to be spread across the joint surface at a much lighter rate than would a shallow socket. But of course with the broader surface there is more contact and a bit more total friction, which may translate to movement that is slightly less free. Again, I am applying engineering principles to a living thing, which is perhaps impractical, but works for me. Bob-O

Hey Bob, Anything that moves is dependent upon principals of mechanical engineering for stability, movement,etc. I see nothing wrong with using the available tools to make assessments. Good comments, Jonah

i know that 2 dysplastic dogs can, on occasion, produce normal hips. a neighbor of mine bought a pair of pups from a pet store. yes, they were littermates, to complicate things. at 18 months or so, he bred them. afterwards, he x-rayed hips. dam was moderate dysplastic, sire was severe. i was a bit interested in pups hips. 5 x-rayed 2 fair 1 good. i would never recommend it though.

i know that 2 dysplastic dogs can, on occasion, produce normal hips. a neighbor of mine made a mistake and bought a pair of pups from a pet store (yes, they were littermates, to complicate things) at 18 months or so, he bred them. afterwards, he x-rayed hips. dam was moderate dysplastic, sire was severe. i was a bit interested in pups hips. despite multiple other health problems, 5 x-rayed 2 fair 1 good. i would never recommend it though.

Looks like you've got a mandate from the SV to minimize hip dysplasia on Pedigreedatabase DH. If it were NOT a problem, why would GSDs have the disease in each and every litter? (May the person who never got a dysplastic GSD now rise!) Now the overall view on HD is on my website. The simulation in 'development of HD from 1986-2003', which comes as close to reality as one possibly can, shows the magnitude of the disease. (The latest study is the most accurate, you are quoting my first studies, I have come a long way from then.) I might just send the study to Fred Lanting for translation and evaluation. Scientists confirm my thesises, and moreover claim hip dysplasia is even more manifest, but just does not show! (As breeders withold the diagnoses, x-ray at puppy-age, etc. thus manipulating statistics.) Your elaborate comments on Pedigreedatabase are in thrilling contrast to your private mail. You did NOT comment my stats when I sent them in personal mails to you. Btw, any personal attacks on me, don't bother me. The SV tends to jump up and down with their heridity numbers, depending on who writes the article and who it is for. A number close at hand at my desk here is one being quoted in the SV-Jubiläumsheft 100 Jahre Der Deutsche Schäferhund (Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung) from April 1999: "50 bis 60 Prozent beträgt der Erblichkeitsgrad bei HD. Anlass für den SV, sein mit selektiven Massnahmen gekoppeltes HD-Verfahren einzuführen." Don't think I need to translate that for you DH? The professors underwriting my stats are wellknown in the SV-World, one takes a seat in the Scientific Commission they have. Don't think you have the expertise DH to withstand HIS level? HD is a huge problem, less than 50% of all GSDs have HD-1 hips. More stringent breeding regulations must be enforced.

on another note does anyone know the formula for factoring in offspring a stamps for zw number? does it go by percent or what?

I have sent you elaborate info gsdfla on your private e-mail. Hope that helps you.