Strengthen Showline Genetics with Working Lines? - Page 1

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by GSDLVR on 29 October 2006 - 20:10

I know this will probably upset a few people, but I am really curious about this subject. There is a growing interest among some breeders (that love showlines and are disappointed in the weak genetics)to breed some showlines to working lines in order to strengthen the immune deficiencies in the showlines and create a better drive/work ethic in the lines. Does anyone know if this is legitimate...to get the best of both worlds? I mean, has anyone seen proof of this? I am sure working enthusiasts are probably concerned that the working dogs will become watered down and show enthusiasts are concerned that the showlines might lose their looks/movement/conformation....

by Ranchinglady on 29 October 2006 - 21:10

It's been the subject of many discussions here and on other boards. It's an interesting thought/idea. Shall be interesting to see what reactions and responses you get. I'll sit on the sideline at watch, as I'm not GSD-wise enough to comment.

by GSDONLINE on 29 October 2006 - 21:10

GSDLVR, THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE. IN PRINCIPAL, I SUPPOSE IT COULD BE SAID THAT SHOWLINES HAVE BETTER STRUCTURE THAN WORKINGLINES AND THE LATTER HAVE BETTER DRIVES AND WORK ETHIC. SO IN PRINICPAL, IF YOU WERE LOOKING TO IMPROVE ON A SPECIFIC FACTOR A PERSON COULD START THERE. WE FOUND THAT THERE ARE FEW, BUT EXCEPTIONAL, SHOWLINES WITH WORK ETHIC AND DRIVES AND SOME EXCEPTIONALLY STRUCTURED WORKING LINES. WE ALSO FOUND THAT, FOR US, IMMUNE DEFICIENCIES WERE MUCH MORE PREVALENT IN THE WORKING LINES. SINCE BUYING A PUPPY IS A CRAP SHOOT AT BEST PEOPLE TEND TO GAMBLE ON WORKING LINES FOR WORK AND SCHUTZHUND, AND SHOW LINES FOR SHOW. ALMOST EVERYONE HAS EXAMPLES OF WEAK WORKING DOGS AND GENETICALLY WRONG SHOW LINES. I/WE LOOK AT THE DOGS. DOGS BRED WITH GENERATIONAL IMPROVEMENT(IE. 3, 4, 5+) GENERATIONS DOWN THE LINE WITH DOGS FOR THE PURPOSE DESIGNED. I HAVE A GREAT EXAMPLE BUT THE OWNER IS UPSET WITH ME CONSTANTLY MENTIONING HIS NAME SO I'LL PASS ON THAT FOR NOW. I WILL LEAVE IT WITH LOOK AT AND KNOW THE DOGS IN THE PEDIGREE AND WHAT THEY BRING MORE THAN THE CLASSIFICATION THEY FALL IN. A GOOD EXAMPLE BEING DO NOT PUT 2 PREY DOGS TOGETHER AND EXPECT A NATURALLY DEFENSIVE MONSTER FROM THAT BREEDING AND VICE VERSA.

by Andie Jackson on 29 October 2006 - 21:10

I think, as with any same-breed "outcrossing," the same rules would apply. Have a specific goal, know the bloodlines you are working with, and select partners that EXHIBIT and PRODUCE those qualities. A gorgeous dog with sorry temperament crossed with a sorry-looking dog with excellent temperament is OVER 50% LIKELY to produce sorry dogs with sorry temperament.

DesertRangers

by DesertRangers on 29 October 2006 - 21:10

I would think it's best not to cross lines. If show lines would breed correctly (as some of them do) you would not have this problem. Same for working lines. You breed for what you need either way. Unfortuntely the market has needs and people fill those needs(show me the money) and now we have many breeders breeding whatever they can their hands on. I was watching a dog show this morning another breed rescue organization and they were discussing they hated to see one of their breed on TV or advertized somehow because the breed would be "popular" for awhile and draw in many breeders and they would have many inferior pups with many problems that ended up in the rescue shelters.

by oso on 29 October 2006 - 21:10

Choose showlines with the best possible temperament and working lines with best possible structure...it is the ideal scenario because ther should be only one german shpeherd that excels both in structure and temperament - but I think few breeders are brave enough to try this...

by p59teitel on 29 October 2006 - 22:10

"Does anyone know if this is legitimate...to get the best of both worlds? I mean, has anyone seen proof of this?" Karl Fueller of Zwinger vom Kirschental has been doing this for fifty-plus years, by breeding his HGH bitches to showline dogs. The result has been great-looking, properly-structured dogs who have excellent drives to work. Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennels has a nice synopsis of Karl Fueller's breeding strategies here: http://www.leerburg.com/fuller.htm

DesertRangers

by DesertRangers on 29 October 2006 - 22:10

Not to be rude but I disagree OSO. Many working lines people need a dog with very strong even extreme drives that they can count on to perform under harsh conditions "no matter what" such as sport,police, military etc. Most other people do not need these higher drives as these dogs can be more demanding to control etc. I see the need for both types myself--just my opinion. I remember a former Dallas Cowboys Coach (Jimmy Johnson) talking about building a winning team and he made a remark like " I don't care if they look pretty in their underwear or not, can they play football?

by gsdlvr2 on 29 October 2006 - 22:10

"legitimate" to mix them? and get the best of both worlds........why not? didn't they start out that way? In agreement with oso,I would only mix the best and the best in all respects. I might be criticized also for this but if you can select the best ,go for it. Proof ?,they started out that way. IMO

by gsdlvr2 on 29 October 2006 - 22:10

Also ,in keeping with the best of the best, what I mean is it should be stable,drives that will ,as desert rangers says "no matter what" will be there for you.This dog should also be pleasing to the eye and managable .Very high drive dogs can and do have manners if trained .





 


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