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by Bob McKown on 09 November 2012 - 12:11
Before the JA
by Gustav on 09 November 2012 - 12:11
I think it is all ego...personally. Jmo.....the WDA is aligned with GSDCA. The GSDCA has no overall interest in maintaining working dogs, their interest is show/PET, the WDA is interested in promoting working/sport although more inclined towards show. The USCA is a stepchild of the SV. The SV is has overall interest in commercial show/sport....with an emphasis on show.( check the numbers before you get indignant), the USCA is interested in promoting sport/show with an emphasis on sport. ( Most USCA members title their dogs as opposed to breed survey, plus the USCA is also comprised of alternate breeds in their clubs...certainly their dogs aren't getting breed surveyed by SV judges...lol) Many of the groups except the GSDCA are still going over the pond for their sport and show pups. Oh what a tangled web we weave......except for the GSDCA....which is contrary to the dog continuing as a working dog....nobody has the right to be sanctimonious,IMO. Commercialism is just a little better than Pet for maintaining the breed, show a little better than commercialism, sport a little better than show, and RSV2000 probably the best direction for the breed over all. But with most organizations, the organization eventually becomes more important than the mission they seek to pursue. Oh Well....I find it amusing...lol
by Bob McKown on 09 November 2012 - 12:11
The RSV2000 will in my opinion be a positive choice for the working dog owner. My wish to the new administration (which I had the chance to relay my beliefs to) was that they keep a open friendly hand extended to Raiser and the RSV2000.
by Dog1 on 09 November 2012 - 13:11
Bob,
We can agree. USA's events seem to be on the rise. USA can certainly be both a breed and schutzhund, I mean, IPO organization. It has been in the past. No reason it can't be in the future,,,,if that's the direction the club chooses to go.
If the organization chooses to take the strictly narrow working stance. If it embodies the essence of Jim Engle's article, it may appeal to a narrow part of what the German Shepherd community is about. Schutzhund,,errrr,,,IPO is a great sport. It's an integral part of the GSD. However it is not the total German Shepherd. The breed consists of IPO sport dogs, Conformation dogs, Agility dogs, Service dogs, Military dogs, Police dogs of many disciplines, Just plain pets, etc., There's all types of health requirements attached to the breed. This is what makes the German Shepherd the dog that it is. If USA chooses to be a breed organization as the SV has and cater to all groups. It has a brighter future.
The JA? It's done no matter what you want to believe. It was a rotting carcass on the side of the road. The vultures have picked it clean. It's no longer the stinky offensive mess it was in the beginning. Might as well scoop up the bones and give it a decent burial. The aftermath remains as a roadblock to future growth. It affects a small group of people you say? I don't think so. It may have alienated a small group of people if you consider about a third of the membership a small group of people. Look what else it did. It created animosity. This animosity continues today as we see from some of the responses to this post. It created a tremendous loss of revenue to the organization. Look at the services that were dropped to accommodate the JA. Look at the thousands of dollars lost at the sieger show. Do you think the SchH National events are big money makers? Prior to the JA the annual budget had zero dollars allotted as income for those events. Where does the money to support the working side of the organization come from? See what I mean. It makes sense to modify the JA if for no other reason than to try to regain lost revenue. If nothing else, the repeal may actually have the effect it originally intended. The original intent was to undermine the WDA. It's repeal at this time may serve that purpose better than the original implementation.
Other thna that my friend, we can agree to disagree.
We can agree. USA's events seem to be on the rise. USA can certainly be both a breed and schutzhund, I mean, IPO organization. It has been in the past. No reason it can't be in the future,,,,if that's the direction the club chooses to go.
If the organization chooses to take the strictly narrow working stance. If it embodies the essence of Jim Engle's article, it may appeal to a narrow part of what the German Shepherd community is about. Schutzhund,,errrr,,,IPO is a great sport. It's an integral part of the GSD. However it is not the total German Shepherd. The breed consists of IPO sport dogs, Conformation dogs, Agility dogs, Service dogs, Military dogs, Police dogs of many disciplines, Just plain pets, etc., There's all types of health requirements attached to the breed. This is what makes the German Shepherd the dog that it is. If USA chooses to be a breed organization as the SV has and cater to all groups. It has a brighter future.
The JA? It's done no matter what you want to believe. It was a rotting carcass on the side of the road. The vultures have picked it clean. It's no longer the stinky offensive mess it was in the beginning. Might as well scoop up the bones and give it a decent burial. The aftermath remains as a roadblock to future growth. It affects a small group of people you say? I don't think so. It may have alienated a small group of people if you consider about a third of the membership a small group of people. Look what else it did. It created animosity. This animosity continues today as we see from some of the responses to this post. It created a tremendous loss of revenue to the organization. Look at the services that were dropped to accommodate the JA. Look at the thousands of dollars lost at the sieger show. Do you think the SchH National events are big money makers? Prior to the JA the annual budget had zero dollars allotted as income for those events. Where does the money to support the working side of the organization come from? See what I mean. It makes sense to modify the JA if for no other reason than to try to regain lost revenue. If nothing else, the repeal may actually have the effect it originally intended. The original intent was to undermine the WDA. It's repeal at this time may serve that purpose better than the original implementation.
Other thna that my friend, we can agree to disagree.
by Bob McKown on 09 November 2012 - 13:11
Dog1:
The total GSD is a working dog designed to be,breed to be and by the founders great wish asked to be kept that way. "The breed consists of IPO sport dogs, Conformation dogs, Agility dogs, Service dogs, Military dogs, Police dogs of many disciplines" If were talking "breed dynamics" The one thing all these dogs need to share is a "working conformation" the proper question is does the current judgeing reflect the design of the breed? or does it reflect the current trend in the judges favor?
"This is what makes the German Shepherd the dog that it is. If USA chooses to be a breed organization as the SV has and cater to all groups. It has a brighter future"
My big question is catering to all groups dillutes it,s core responsibility set forth by the breed originator does it not?
I see no hindrence to future growth thru the JA and I also believe whether it is left as is or changed you will still see future growth.
IMHO the major dynamic to the future is the realization that the S.V. does not serve the purpose or the benefit of the working GSD but is truly a hindrence to the breed. I believe the dynamic will be the influence of Raisers RSV2000.
"The JA? It's done no matter what you want to believe" Only a sith believes in absolutes (sorry just had to throw in some star wars) It does matter what I want to believe. I believe we all have our opinions and these help shape the orginization. As my opinion is the IPO is a great sport title but has nothing to do with the breedabality of the GSD breed and lacks fundemental challenges that provide a clear picture on the dogs strength,physical abality, working confromation and mental stability to be judged breed worthy.
And yes we can agree to disagree.
The total GSD is a working dog designed to be,breed to be and by the founders great wish asked to be kept that way. "The breed consists of IPO sport dogs, Conformation dogs, Agility dogs, Service dogs, Military dogs, Police dogs of many disciplines" If were talking "breed dynamics" The one thing all these dogs need to share is a "working conformation" the proper question is does the current judgeing reflect the design of the breed? or does it reflect the current trend in the judges favor?
"This is what makes the German Shepherd the dog that it is. If USA chooses to be a breed organization as the SV has and cater to all groups. It has a brighter future"
My big question is catering to all groups dillutes it,s core responsibility set forth by the breed originator does it not?
I see no hindrence to future growth thru the JA and I also believe whether it is left as is or changed you will still see future growth.
IMHO the major dynamic to the future is the realization that the S.V. does not serve the purpose or the benefit of the working GSD but is truly a hindrence to the breed. I believe the dynamic will be the influence of Raisers RSV2000.
"The JA? It's done no matter what you want to believe" Only a sith believes in absolutes (sorry just had to throw in some star wars) It does matter what I want to believe. I believe we all have our opinions and these help shape the orginization. As my opinion is the IPO is a great sport title but has nothing to do with the breedabality of the GSD breed and lacks fundemental challenges that provide a clear picture on the dogs strength,physical abality, working confromation and mental stability to be judged breed worthy.
And yes we can agree to disagree.
by gsdstudent on 09 November 2012 - 14:11
There is a breed standard to adhere to. There is no such thing as a working line standard or a show line standard. Every GSD enthusiasts should become aware of what makes a better dog and work towards that ideal. Some of that work must be supporting a national organization which works towards the IDEAL. Money makes the world go around and in the GSD world there will always be more entry's in a breed show than a working trial. The national organizations make money from entry's and registrations. We own these clubs! Support the total dog. Investigate the workings of each organization and place your effort into making a better breed.
by Sheesh on 09 November 2012 - 18:11
I am currently the vice president of our WDA club in MD/VA. We have a USCA club about an hour away that we have a very good relationship with. We train together occasionally, and we support them in their trials and they do the same for us. The fact that there is such a widespread segregation is just stupid. There is no reason we can't all be supportive of one another. It starts from the bottom up- if enough people want change, things will change. This "top Down" directive is the problem. The clubs need to drive the ship, not the leaders of either org. Change starts from within- and it will benefit all that are actively working or showing.
Theresa
Theresa
by Love My Canine on 09 November 2012 - 19:11
I can't see why anyone new to the German Shepherd would want to be involved with either organization. Very few people in the United States even know what Schutzhund is,and the German Shepherd has been the second most popular breed in the United States for many years according to AKC records. Both have failed miserably when it comes to educating the public about the GSD. Neither organization is very welcoming and most clubs have problems with petty bickering and jealousy. Anyone new to the GSD doing a little research into Schutzhund will find nothing but problems. A schutzhund title means nothing in the USA when searching for a working dog. The SV has lowered it's working standard in order for breeders to sell more dogs to Americans. It has been almost 25 years since I titled my first dog as a teenager in Germany,and things have changed. The Europeans have a different culture then the USA and this is why Schutzhund is more succesful in Europe. Schutzhund in the US is a doomed sport that I do not see growing, but instead becoming extinct. The GSD is the second most popular breed in the country and I will bet 95% of GSD owners in the US do not know what Schutzhund is.
by Mystere on 09 November 2012 - 22:11
"The GSD is the second most popular breed in the country and I will bet 95% of GSD owners in the US do not know what Schutzhund is." You would win that bet! 
I'd bet over 90% of the current schutzhund enthusiasts hadn't heard of the sport, could not pronounce the name, nor spell it a year or so prior to their first visit to a schutzhund club.
I'd bet over 90% of the current schutzhund enthusiasts hadn't heard of the sport, could not pronounce the name, nor spell it a year or so prior to their first visit to a schutzhund club. 
by OGBS on 09 November 2012 - 23:11
Love My Canine,
I'm not entirely disagreeing with what you say, but, you may want to at the very least correct your puppy advertising.
This will go a long way towards educating less knowledgeable people so they know what they are buying from you.
(Here's a hint: Charlie's dog, Nike, is not a two time world schutzhund champion, or even one time. Nike did take second when the WUSV was in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky and competed in the WUSV a total of four times.)
I'm not trying to be down on you either, but, this is part of the GSD problem in the US. First, you say Schutzhund is nothing anymore and especially in this country, then you have an advertisement for your pups touting, not the accomplishments of the pups parents, but, that your dog, the sire of the pups is bred from a successful schutzhund dog. That's a bit conflicting.
---
To anyone who will listen:
Successful GSD breeding and the betterment of the GSD breed should be about breeding dogs with excellent temperament that can perform well in almost any venue and then backing it up with the dogs' lineage, not just about breeding lineage.
---
To anyone looking to get involved with Schutzhund:
Just as Schutzhund isn't a sport for dogs with weak nerves, it also isn't for people with thin skin.
Schutzhund isn't an easy sport. There is no question that it has changed over the years, but, the basic premise is the same.
It takes a lot of time and effort to train and title a dog. Some extra cash is needed also.
If people in a club are giving you a hard time go to another club.
Usually the people causing problems aren't very successful in the sport.
---
There is a lot of work to be done in the United States to undo what the GSDCA has been doing for almost 100 years.
It will take some time to educate the public, and, some will never allow themselves to be educated.
As long as there are large sums of money to be made from breeding dogs (any breed) the dogs will likely suffer.
I'm not talking about those who are trying to do things correctly.
There are way too many people in this country breeding dogs because it is a quick and easy way to make money and there is zero self-regulation.
The AKC is the biggest part of the problem. They will fight to the death to protect your rights to breed dogs, but, are very, very reluctant to get involved when it comes to protecting the actual dogs from scumbag breeders or scumbag owners. Unfortunately for the AKC it is only about how many registrations they get each year and not about the dogs themselves. That's sad!
It's never going to get better until people here decide to have some respect for these dogs and start taking breeding and the welfare of the dogs seriously.
---
As for the two clubs, it is UScA all the way! They are the only breed organization in this country that truly represents what the GSD is about.
The WDA won't exist in a few years if the current trend continues with GSDCA people taking over.
(WDA = We're Doomed Already)
I'm not entirely disagreeing with what you say, but, you may want to at the very least correct your puppy advertising.
This will go a long way towards educating less knowledgeable people so they know what they are buying from you.
(Here's a hint: Charlie's dog, Nike, is not a two time world schutzhund champion, or even one time. Nike did take second when the WUSV was in Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky and competed in the WUSV a total of four times.)
I'm not trying to be down on you either, but, this is part of the GSD problem in the US. First, you say Schutzhund is nothing anymore and especially in this country, then you have an advertisement for your pups touting, not the accomplishments of the pups parents, but, that your dog, the sire of the pups is bred from a successful schutzhund dog. That's a bit conflicting.
---
To anyone who will listen:
Successful GSD breeding and the betterment of the GSD breed should be about breeding dogs with excellent temperament that can perform well in almost any venue and then backing it up with the dogs' lineage, not just about breeding lineage.
---
To anyone looking to get involved with Schutzhund:
Just as Schutzhund isn't a sport for dogs with weak nerves, it also isn't for people with thin skin.
Schutzhund isn't an easy sport. There is no question that it has changed over the years, but, the basic premise is the same.
It takes a lot of time and effort to train and title a dog. Some extra cash is needed also.
If people in a club are giving you a hard time go to another club.
Usually the people causing problems aren't very successful in the sport.
---
There is a lot of work to be done in the United States to undo what the GSDCA has been doing for almost 100 years.
It will take some time to educate the public, and, some will never allow themselves to be educated.
As long as there are large sums of money to be made from breeding dogs (any breed) the dogs will likely suffer.
I'm not talking about those who are trying to do things correctly.
There are way too many people in this country breeding dogs because it is a quick and easy way to make money and there is zero self-regulation.
The AKC is the biggest part of the problem. They will fight to the death to protect your rights to breed dogs, but, are very, very reluctant to get involved when it comes to protecting the actual dogs from scumbag breeders or scumbag owners. Unfortunately for the AKC it is only about how many registrations they get each year and not about the dogs themselves. That's sad!
It's never going to get better until people here decide to have some respect for these dogs and start taking breeding and the welfare of the dogs seriously.
---
As for the two clubs, it is UScA all the way! They are the only breed organization in this country that truly represents what the GSD is about.
The WDA won't exist in a few years if the current trend continues with GSDCA people taking over.
(WDA = We're Doomed Already)
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