Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 16

Agree with Johan.  Have often wondered why some folk are so
convinced that the Ob section of IPO / SchH is harder to achieve
than Competition Obedience.  In fact, much I have heard and
read on SchH over the years implies that actually LESS precision
is 'necessary'  (but compare that with current day EXPECTATIONS
in IPO, where glueing to the leg, watching the handler's face, and
hackney prancing have become much more the norm).

Lets face it, both disciplines have become far more competitive
than when they 'started out'.  I also dare suspect there is an
element which says that "because we do bitework too, we are
tougher handlers/trainers than people doing competiton Ob, so
it follows we need 'tougher' methods".  What do others think ?

I think you have probably hit the nail right on the head Hundmutter.  


Margaret N-J

I would like to hear the opinion of GSDFAN, (Melanie Howe), she has put advanced titles on dogs in competition obedience, IPO 3, and police obedience, this is person who would not be knowledgable on one side and speculating on the other side. 

I too, would like to see Melanies take on this subject Gustav, I don't know her, but she obviously has experience in both sports.  Please don't assume I am speculating though, because while nowhere near top level in Schutzhund, I have trained and qualifed 2 dogs Sch H 1 and one Sch H 2 and previously won up to Class C in Competition Obedience so do actually have some knowledge of what is required in both sports, though the Obedience was many years ago and the standard is far higher now.

Margaret N-J.

The question was, is electric collar required to train precision? Didn't say in which discipline. I think IPO and competitive obedience are both really going the same way. I work with a friend with her Sch 3 bitch, and I train for obedience in the UK. I also work with gundog people. Basic obedience is the foundation for all disciplines.
All are now requiring the dog to work with more precision, but with motivation/drive. This can be very exaggerated in the obedience dog, and the precision required to get to the higher classes, would probably not be to the schutzhund dogs advantage, because of the other parts of their work. I think judges in all disciplines would prefer to see a dog committed to their work, and not just going thru the motions. And I have been to trials for IPO. Not necessarily top ones, but love watching the videos of top handlers.

ChristopherT:Has anyone else notice that this has turned from "A dog can be trained for a precision IPO performance without an ecoller" into "A dog can do obedience trials without an ecollar"? People, there is a big difference between the two. Why is everyone having such a hard time finding a percision IPO dog trained without a ecollar?

No. The topic is: 

 Is Electric collar necessary to train precision?

Look it up it is right on top of this and every page of this thread. :)
Prager Hans
 

Kaffirdog, was not implying you were not skilled in both, just wanted Gsdfan's opinion, because I know some commenting have said they have never done one or the other. I am like you in having done both at local level, and comp ob many years ago. GSDfan is both current and quite skilled so her opinion is of value to me...no more, no less.

Precision?
Some think that precision is and accuracy according to a perfect picture during competition and keep bringing completions  as examples.  
There is also precision in reliability around distraction of every day life.  In every day life I do care if the dog who, for example,  encountered distraction for which we did not specifically trained responds reliably. Like when dog  decided to chase a dear over the freeway will come reliably when commanded> I do not care if he/she  sits in front of me and looks me in the eyes. What I care about is that he comes at all and every time, reliably, fast and without hesitation. I venture to say that most competition  precision obedience dogs  will not do that . 
 
Prager Hans

The type of dog required (temperament and drives) in IPO is very different than the type of dog required for obedience trials. For IPO you need a dog that has both the ability to come into a very high state of drive in obedience and protection yet be able to to settle down and concentrate during tracking. The personality of a dog that must be aggressive and bite is very different from a dog that does not. The proximity of the handler to the dog is very different in the two sports. In obedience the dog is only a hand full of steps away. In IPO the dog can be 50 or 60 meters away. Granted, for the most part obedience is obedience in all venues but the type of dogs used are very different. All IPO dogs can do obedience. But how many obedience dogs can do protection or track? My point is that it takes a very different type of dog to do IPO so it's a bit silly compare it an obedience dog. I think it's weird that so many of you could only think of the similarity of the obedience and not the different qualities of the dogs.

There are many National level competition dogs that live in the homes with families, kids and cats..... horses. Some are locked in the outside kennel. but I would not say "most".

The general idea of kennel confinded only dogs that go to competition is really outdated. There are some dogs, of course that are better off in a kennel but I know of many that will get locked up more only about a month before the trials to cap more drive. I know of a dog that runs about 4 miles bfore each trial to keep her more namagable! there are dogs and there are dogs......