Please help...can someone find out if these two dogs have shutzhund titles or not?? - Page 4

Couplea things.  First, Gustav & VKGSDS--the issue isn't that the parents of this pup aren't titled, it's that the seller STATED ON HIS WEBSITE that both parents were SchH2 dogs. IOW, this 'seller' lied about that.  SchH titles aren't the be-all and end-all, I completely agree--but lying about your dogs having them so you can sell puppies from them is flat-out wrong.  As far as I know, the seller didn't claim that either dog had a hip certification, so if he had never claimed the parents of the pup were titled, the only discussion we'd be having was an educational one with the OP so she didn't make the same mistake about hip certification in the future.

Yogie, she's not in AL; she's in another state, and she and the seller met halfway between the two locations to transfer custody of the pup. 

If folks look at the guy's website, it's not hard to see how a newcomer could get sucked in by what's published there; sure, it's easy for someone who's got some experience to see that there's HUGE gaps in info missing, but to someone just starting out, it looks pretty legit, with the different logos for the different organizations [SV, AKC, USCA, GSDCA, and the FCI] on the home page, right there with the photos of the sire and dam of this pup clearly identified as being SchH2 dogs.  It's also reasonable that the OP is now wondering about the parentage of the pup, simply because if the seller lied about the SchH titles, what else is he lying about?  The pedigrees on the two dogs that are named as the parents is decent enough; if the pup is actually out of two dogs whose backgrounds are comprised entirely of King MCMVII, Gretchen MCMMX, Heidi Wilson, Duke of Shephard Land and Schatzie Jones, that's vastly different than a pup who at least has SOME history of hip certfication, show ratings, breed surveys and working titles behind it.  Nobody likes to be the victim of fraud, but people often don't speak up when it happens because they feel stupid, and they're afraid other people are going to ridicule them for being conned. Like happens here on occasion.

 VKGSDs and Gustav - My comment if you will re read it listed the ZW system as well as OFA certifications as places to check, I forgot about OVC, any of which those dogs should have been listed in by now since they are 9 and 6 years old. With regard to "bothering" to SchH title a dog that is not certified, this guy has two dogs he is using for breeding that are supposedly titled, so why would he Schutzhund title two dogs that he planned to use for breeding and not first check the hips and the elbows. That is where my statement was aimed. With regard to titling dogs that are dysplastic, that is up to the individual to make that decision for their own dog, everyone knows their own dogs physical limits. 

I feel very bad for the OP, it pains me to see another person swindled by an unscrupulous breeder who lies to the public just to make a buck. This is why I try to educate anyone I speak with, whether I have the dog for them or not, I try to educate them on what to look for and how to validate things people claim on their websites about their dogs, I have even helped folks to check out parents of litters they've found elsewhere so they feel more comfortable with their purchase knowing their puppy is coming from a good and honest breeder. There are people in my area out here that do the exact same thing to the public, lying about titles and health certifications and it makes me ill. 

I agree Hexe. The website truly is designed to fool the novices with the "proper " looking schutzhund info articles and logos..... 

hexe, my comment was in regards to the comment about who would bother to Schutzhund title dogs without hip ratings, not the OPs predicament (in that case, I agree with Yogi....why all the fuss now?  Most people who do their research up front should have no problems not being duped, just enjoy the dog, chalk it up to a lesson learned).  Plenty of dogs have fine hips without an a-stamp or earn titles before their official ratings, or.....have owners that won't give up on them because their hips aren't breedable.

@Hexe....as VKGsd said, we were commenting about the need for a dog to be xrayed and certified to compete in SCH....don't know where you are coming from in listing my name.......Leotta, I think a lot of assumptions are being made without knowing all the facts. If this dog grows up and certifies health wise, which is very possible, and even titled in something if pursued by owner, then I fail to see the travesty committed except the assumptions projected by some. Owner could have a very nice dog, you don't know and neither do I....that's why I don't project!

Gustav, I never assumed anything would ever go wrong with her new puppy, I agree she may very well end up an excellent dog with perfect hips and elbows and a superb temperament, very possible, she's also fortunate to have an owner that loves her no matter what. That was never my point though, my point was that she was in all likelihood lied to by the breeder who was trying to make a buck off of two dogs with no regard to anything else, unfortunately he is not alone in this country because we have no health requirements with regard to what is bred. Breeders that lie do so only for their own benefit, they are not thinking of the dogs or their future puppies or the clients they sell to and that is what upsets me the most. My original response to the OP was purely to help her try to find the truth about her puppies parents and their titles, just because she had already purchased the dog doesn't mean she couldn't still try and pursue the truth for her own knowledge and to be more educated for any future purchases. Hope that cleared things up for you :)

Your pup looks sable? I didn't think that was possible between 2 black and red parents?

Gustav & VKGSDS, my apologies--I mistakenly read your comments as trying to justify why the seller in this case would have titled two dogs yet not had their hips done. I stand corrected in that regard.

As to why all the fuss now?  Well, how about this--pretty much anywhere in the US, for $500 or less I can pick up an AKC-registered GSD pup with fifteen generations of 'welll..I got a 100% purebreed with papers female GSD, and my buddy's got a purebreed, papered male, so we figured we'd make some of our money back on 'em by matin' 'em and selling the pups for extra cash' and not a hip certification to be found throughout the entire lineage.  I'm betting that the OP paid a lot more than that for this pup that was represented as being out a a sire and dam that were both titled, and not just to a SchH1, no sirree, they had the more advanced SchH2 titles!  If you paid $1200 for what amounts to a $500 pup, wouldn't you be put out? I sure would be.

Yeah, sure, the time for caution was before the transaction took place, but has it really been that long since you were beginners?  Or were you one of the very fortunate ones who had an experienced mentor to guide you around the pitfalls like this seller?  I had that for GSDs, but my first dogs as an adult were Sibes, and I didn't have that advantage--and I made my mistakes, though fortunately that breed had a lot less in the way of hereditary concerns back then than the GSD experiences.

your pup looks very nice and yes she could of come from these parents, if you want to DNA i am sure the dad would have been done but females are not requiremed to be DNA, unless they are imports. yes you would go through AKC. i am not sure i believe the conditions the breeder claims the pups were in, i hate to see this breeders place , really does not sound good and how in the world does such a young pup have mats already. i guess you have leant a big lesson here, do research and dont trust all breeders, better to get other people you know to reconmend a honest breeder too you. there are many good honest people on here that would of help. good thing is your pup is in a better place now.

Dawulf, I don't think the pup is sable; I think that's just longcoated puppy undercoat, the wooly stuff that combined with the guard hairs that are coming in  and the way the sunlight is washing out the lower corner of the shot, that makes the pup's side look sable. Pretty sure she's black & tan. 

She IS cute, there's no denying that.