operant conditioning - i am a believer - Page 5

thanks for the interesting info, i retract my thread title, seems like i was definitely describing classical not operant, i was in error. steve1 i think understanding an overarching theoretical framework while not essential is at least interesting and cannot hurt on a journey of understanding - individuals can take it or leave it, personal choice, why begrudge others that choose to learn it?

vk4gsd
When a guy like yourself knows all there is to know about handling and training  dogs, then no one else on this Forum need to post at all. all these fancy terms mean nothing, You only have to teach a dog what is right and what is wrong, what you expect it to do and what you do not want it to do simply that. If i was to walk up to Ronny van den Berghe and start talking in the way you and a few others have? the Man would smile at me and walk away making me to be the fool that i am, and quite rightly so. I repeat there is nothing hard or complicated about training a dog It is mostly the fault of the handler trying to be too clever and it is the handler who at times needs to have a  collar put on and shown what is right and what is wrong. As regards Mr B.Bellon who you put down.
 I have not seen any of his videos or anything else, but i have had the privalage of doing a few work sessions with the Guy and he is just as others are over here no fancy terms or words just plain common sense and very helpful, plus he is a very nice person, who i may add said if i ever wanted to part with my dog then he would buy her. Now you are not the sort of Guy who listens much to other people, so just get on with what you are doing and then when things do not work out you can put another  thread  on the forum then argue the toss with the ones who reply and try to advise you and there are some Guys on here who could be of benifit if you were to ;listen to them instead of doing the opposite as you seem to have done all along. My last post on this subject now i am going off to the tracking field where the real work starts not just talk of OPERANT CONDITIONING
Perhaps i should tell Gina that she is being Operant Conditioned
Steve1

Steve, if it's overcomplicated for you then just leave it at that.  For most people it makes sense.  We're all talking about the SAME THING anyway.  Using the label doesn't actually change the training, you know that....  Also it's all fine and good when we're traying well bred GSDs with nice temperaments and drive to do the work.  Unfortunately most of the dogs I have my hands on are rescue dogs that have not so stellar temperaments, bad experiences or basically no interaction with people.  They are harder nuts to crack and to really do them justice you have to at least attempt to understand what they heck goes on inside their heads.  My GSDs have all been very easy to train with just about ANY method because they are bred to be quite handler focused, willing workers.  Honestly the SchH stuff, while it takes some time, is not among the more difficult stuff to train or behaviors to deal with.

vk4gsd
You think in 65 years of keeping training and handling dogs they have all been about Sport if you do then you are badly informed or making a guess at it. i have handled a lot of breeds and some not so  nice dogs but you do not need any fancy terms to socialise and train them except a bit of common sense, know how, and a lot of time and patience to bring back a bit of happiness back into there lives so they can safly be rehomed. But you are the expert so you think, the way you post and ask questions tell the wise people excatly what you know about handling dogs. and as for you talking about the IPO sport unless you have done it and i mean in real life sport then you are not in the postition or qualified to talk about it i have seen the short video on another thread that was enough for me to know how good you are in that part of the sport, But Hey, i forgot and applogise? you are the expert in all things to do with dogs and there handling so you think. Now you can comment as much as you like this is my last on this subject, I will give my opinion of you as a dog handler in the scale of 10 and i give you 4 points but i give you 10 out of 10 for your ego. in time you may learn but i think your ego will always come out on top to stop you
Steve1

vk4

added on
This is just for you. besides helping misguided dogs to be re homed some very nasty some a bundle of nerves and frightened animals, they turned out okay in time. i have also helped to train Puppies for the Blind bringing them on from a 8 week old Puppies to a stage where they are passed on; plus i have trained dogs in the form of Sheep herding competitions winning around 20 competitions at that, and bought the two dogs on and trained them again from 8 week old puppies to win those competitions but i still have much to learn about dogs every one is different and as much as we think we know about them there is always a dog to make you think again. when i moved to Belgium i got interested in the Sport of IPO and that is what interests me now in my old age so there you have it my life with dogs which most of the Guys on here already know, But even that still puts me in the beginner bracket besides yourself

Vk4gsd and VKGSDs are different posters.

Steve, seriously I do not understand why you are being so defensive?  Why browse a training forum if you think people are egotistical just for discussing training?  I'm hoping this is just some miscommunication.  By all means do what works for you, OK?  I have no idea what video you are talking about.  You call me egotistical because I am participating in a discussion about operant conditioning in a thread TITLED operant conditioning?!  Mmmmmkay....  I rarely post here so if my presence is that offensive to you I will stay away in the future.

It might help to identify who is being addressed if Steve1 and vk4gsd
​gave us a quick-ref guide by putting an avatar picture on their profiles ?

VKGSDs, don't let Steve drive you away, whichever one out of you
and vk4 he thought he was addressing !  He's not been 'back' long
himself, nothing gives him rights to drive anyone else off the board.
And you 'talk' too much sense to lose you !

You don't have to know how an engine works to drive a car, but I think having an understanding of it helps you get better performance from your vehicle. Your average driver may not know a piston from a spark plug, but the best drivers will understand everything about their cars. Likewise, you can teach a dog something without really understanding the mechanics of why it learned, but to have an understanding of the way dogs (or people) learn can better help to learn more, faster, and with more retention. IMHO

Some people just can't drive period.....and shouldn't at all for the sake of everyone else on the road.
Same could be said for training animals.

VKGSDs
I do not think i have addressed any post with your logo on in this thread, yet it seems to have got you going for some reason. You have though on several occasions pulled me up for commenting on the thread as if i have no right to say anything unless it is too agree with what you and some others post. We over here in Belgium do not ever use phazes like you Guys do on here and i can tell you that i know a lot of Germans who never use those sort of words or terms call them what you like. but by golly they are some great Dog handlers among the very best in the world and proven it. I think it is the American way, what i do not like is that there is no need really to use those terms, i know you have the right too but it does not impress the people in the know and the main reason is that it does not help any newcomer to the Forum who is just starting up with these dogs to understand,
My remarks are to the OP ; Now i do not know what Sex you are Man or Woman; But if you are a Guy then MAN UP and if you are a Woman then TOUGHEN UP; because most Women in this day and age are tougher than us Guys on a whole. the day of being Soft becoming and fragile in the Female has long gone by. One thing i have no intentions of changing the way i write or the words i use when posting for anyone that is me and i am what i am. I think more of the animal than i do the human side if someone is that soft that they cannot take a few blunt words then that is to bad, for me i do not call the way i write as being tough or hard anyway it is just the way i put it down in print.
Hundmutter
I am not putting my Mug Shot on here again i did when i last posted on here and i took it off, and as for driving VKGSDs away if he or she cannot take a bit of stick then let He or She go that is up to the person, I have never tried to drive anyone off the Forum why would i, i do not even know the person. As i said above if i went and started talking to some of the Top Handlers over here in Belgium and Germany at some of the terms used for training Dogs they would just laugh at me or anyone else you did for that matter.
I think a rule for everyone on here is at the top of every letter posted to address the Logo name of the Poster they are directing there post too if we fail to do this then the post should be deleted
Steve1