operant conditioning - i am a believer - Page 8

fwiw, a lot of sport people i seen follow a system told/showed to them by the other guys that they have had success with previously. all good but when a dog does not fit the system the trainer usually has nothing to fall back on except try the system harder, until they eventually decide the dog is no good. the theory at least gives you something to reflect on and try make sense about what is actually happening.
Another component of that is that most people are going to get a dog that "fits" with their system.  A lot of top IPO competitors don't train dogs "HOT", they buy a green or even partially titled, trained dog so they can thoroughly evaluate the dog closer to or at maturity and make sure this dog is doing to do well with their style of training and be successful in competition. I don't agree with forcing a dog into the mold of one's system, but I also think it's fairly natural that everyone is better at some aspects or types of training than others and it just makes sense to seek out dogs with the temperament and drive to match.  The problem is when someone is still figuring that out, or they think they want something that really doesn't fit with how they are prepared to train (ex. someone who insists on an "extreme drive" dog with low thresholds and is frustrated with the dog leaking drive or has no idea how to cap it).

that whole not HOT thing came as a shock to me and really lowered some of my idols in my view. heard the arguments about i can only afford one dog so am going to make sure it is one that fits my goals.... true i guess but not my idea of why i train a dog beyond pet level. seems the better the competitor the older the dog they get and the bigger bucks they pay and the quicker to wash a dog out, so much for all this talk of great handlers blah, blah, blah.

makes sense tho if yr aim is to get on the podium and sell stud fees as quick as possible, the dog will have reached it's use by date by the next WUSV anyhows and just becomes another mouth to feed or export to the states.....

I really don't think stud fees play into it much.  I think your top international IPO competitors just like to compete and win.  One was doing so with a cryptorchid dog if I recall correctly, so a dog that won't ever be bred (ethically).  The amount of $$$ it takes to train and travel at that level could never be recouped in stud fees in a dog's lifetime I don't think.  I personally like to compete with all my dogs "HOT" but I have no aspirations of WUSV.  If that is someone else's goal, I can understand why they don't waste time with puppies.  Like I said, not everyone is the best trainer at everything, we all have our niche.  I used to be a gymnast and there were always internationally famous coaches who were either known for developing a young gymnast *or* taking over a Level 10 (highest level before Elite which is what you see in the Olympics) and fine turning that gymnast to be an Olympic champion.  Very few coaches can do both and the ones that do basically got lucky, some kid with a miraculous level of talent signed up as a toddler and never changed coaches/gyms.  Same thing with dogs and not just puppies vs. SchH 3 adults.  Some people are really good at training a forced retrieve, some people are really good at tracking imprinting, etc.  You can go to seminars and clinics that focus on just one exercise.

i guess why do a sport if yr not planning on winning at the highest level.....

Because it's fun and intrinsically rewarding...I personally don't do anything for "cookies". I would be a horrible bitch to train ;-)

pinch collar and you would come around......

vk4gsd
So we get this right i and asking the Guy from Australia this question, If i or any other Guy on this Forum came along to your home to see you,  now this is the question
WOULD you be able to command your dogs to remain calm and sit or down and remain indifferent to that person meaning probably inspect but remain quiet whist he or she was on your property, then after doing there business leave just as they came.
NO big debate just a straight YES or NO is all that is wanted 
Steve1

i guess why do a sport if yr not planning on winning at the highest level.....
Because I enjoy spending time with my dogs.  That's like saying why would you own a GSD if you're not someone that needs a service dog, police dog, or true working dog?  Actually, I train with several different clubs and am currently active training in six different dog sports.  I also work full time.  I supposed if I were independently wealthy I could quit my job and I just *might* have enough time in the day to train to a top level at 2-3 of my 6 current sports, lol.  I already travel and compete almost once a month. I know people that compete EVERY weekend and still do not have the top dogs in their sports.

I did just get a dog last spring that has the potential to be a top dog in one of my sports (not a GSD and not SchH).

 

VK4 - as soon as you are "planning" on winning at the highest level the dog is no companion any more but a tool,
A REAL GOOD HANDLER IN MY OPINION IS A PERSON ABLE TO GET THE BEST RESULTS HIS PERSONAL DOG IS ABLE TO ACHIEVE
and the top competitors don´t care about stud fees in the first case, they do care about placements first of all.
For VKGSDs: Some dogs do more than "recoupe"...but that´s a nice result of all ( training, trialing, genetics ) not the " normal " goal.

Talking about moral and ethics of top handlers would be another thread...

VKGSDs, forgot to say, I joined high school and college, and I learned a lot of theories during my life - but most of the people training there dogs over here do it just for fun, learning by doing, plus learning out of the experience of the elders, most of them don´t care about any behavioral theories at all.

What I learned about the years is, that almost no dog does fit into any pattern - every dog is different, and every training session is different, too.

Susie
very well put; just what i have been trying to get across in my own way, but i think that most on this forum like to make it more techical than it really is. in a way i can understand it because when one does a thing and gets results in a simple way, not that training a dog to a high degree is simple it takes time , patience and a lot of work as most know and even then in a lot of  cases it does not work out, but to try the simple straight foreward way there is no fun in it for some they like the fancy terms and then apply them. possibly the results may be the same but why make some thing  more than it is
Steve1