IS HE A LONG COAT OR STOCK COAT? I'M CONFUSED! - Page 7

Hundmutter wrote:

Wasn't suggesting ALL 'plush' coats are really incorrect,
just commenting that its an American 'thing' the Germans
have not wanted any part of, heretofore. Surely no arguing
with that ?

Well, I'm sorry to have to inform you that I shall be arguing with that comment, because if you look back at the high line dogs being shown and used for breeding IN GERMANY, back before  1998 when the SV declared the Langstockhaar was no longer acceptable for breeding and could not be breed surveyed or show rated, there were a great many dogs that we in the US refer to as 'plush' coated, which were in reality Langstockhaars.  Many of these dogs were surveyed as KKl 1 [despite the rules stating that Langstockhaars could receive only a KKl 2 and a show rating of Good], and were V-rated [or better!] in the BSZS--though it seemed that happened only if there was a notable kennel name attached--and there was no evidence that the showline breeders on the Continent were avoiding producing these 'plush' coats or dogs which anyone would classify as being the extreme definition of the Langstockhaar.  After the SV disqualified the Langstockhaar, unless the dog was truly longcoated [as in having no undercoat], what would have previously been considered as a LSH was instead identified as a stockhaar, and life went on. Example: This bitch certainly has feathering on her belly, front legs, and so forth, yet she still was surveyed as KKl1 and V rated--despite having been born after the 'ban' on the LSC. After the ban was placed, I would leaf through a friend's copies of the SV's Zeitung and see photo after photo of 'plush' young dogs that had been awarded their first V show rating and were assigned to KKl 1 on their initial survey, so the only thing that really seemed to change was actually acknowledging the LSHs unless they were really, really hairy like a Rough Collie [which of course never were really being campaigned much to begin with].

Additoinally, the German high-line breeders had a good income stream going with the Langstockhaars, since a lot of pet owners prefer them because they're usually very, very attractive. I suspect it was disruption in that very income stream that led the SV to reverse their initial ban on the LSH, but rather than admit they were flat-out wrong for banning them, the SV had to save face and concoct this fakakta 'separate registry' for them.

There are some who would submit that the LSH dogs seem to always be the ones exhibiting the best conformation, and I know of a number of serious AKC obedience competitors [as in they train with an eye toward the Obedience Trial Champion title and beyond, not just CD or Rally titles] who feel the LSH trait has some connection with biddability, temperament and intelligence to the point where they won't have anything but the LSHs. 

I don't have any preference as far as coat type goes--I just want a good, sound, sane dog--so I thought the whole 'ban' was ridiculous from the jump.

VERY good post hexe!! I couldn't get the "this bitch" link to come up, can you post her name?  I'd be curious to see her!

CMills, I fixed the link, but just in case, the bitch I was referencing is V Floh Brebe am See.  Not picking on her or anything, I basically just pulled up dogs I knew that had thrown LSHs and then looked for photos of their progeny or siblings that exhibited the trait. If I had the time, I could probably do a web search and pull up a lot more examples, but I was being lazy and didn't search anywhere other than on this site.

Hexe- I don't know that I'd consider Floh to be a long coat, all I can really see that's longer hair on her is just a TAD of longer guard hairs on her belly. I don't see long feathers on backs of legs, and none in/around her ears?  maybe its just me!

These are 4 Remo progeny, all out of different dams, and to me THESE are long coated, Betoven doesn't look anything like these dogs.

Interesting thread! My female's sire has long hair on his legs and belly, very similar to that bitch Hexe showed above (Floh) and Star got very long hair on her belly and legs during her first winter, but ONLY BECAUSE SHE WAS OUTSIDE A LOT. It hasn't happened since, and her normal coat is much shorter than my male's coat. Right now, with their winter coats growing in, I can bury my fingers in his coat up to the second knuckle, whereas with Star, it only goes a bit past the first. The longer, thicker coat my male has would definitely be preferred in the show ring. She's not lacking in undercoat, but could definitely use more undercoat and topcoat.

Star shares an ancestor with Floh in Jeck v. Noricum. Des anyone know if he threw longcoats?

I had a Shiloh pup that was 'smooth' (stock coat). Her dad was a long coat (plush, Shiloh folks call it) and her mom a smooth. She showed no tendency towards excess hairiness, even though she must have carried the long coat gene from her dad.

Star's father:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=476201-erko-vom-haus-tchorz

In Star's photo on the database, which was taken at the end of winter, I did quite a bit of trimming on her belly and feathers to get her tidied up for the photo session. The hair on her belly was 3 inches long in places, just like you see in her dad's photo.

Sunsilver- Personally I wouldn't consider Stars sire to be long coated. Compare his coat to the pics I posted above your post, he does not have all the feathering. I'd say he would be considered a stock coat carrying the long coat gene.  But we all have our own thoughts/ideas!  I'm very curious to see what Betoven looks like once he has his first full coat blow.

Excellent info Hexe-Thank You, and cmills, 'those. Dogs' ARE long coats without a doubt. There is a big difference in long coats and stock coats.
I prefer the stock coat.
I have on more than one occassion got stock coats out of two standard coats, and have also got nothing but standard coats despite breeding stock coat to smooth coat.
AND cmills, I still think your dog is gorgeous....I would be more than happy to have him IN my house.

I agree, Erko is definitely NOT a long coat!  But re. him carrying the long coat gene, here is my shioh who definitely DOES carry the gene!   The first picture is late winter (she's not even a year yet) and the next are late summer/early fall of her 2nd year. You will note she has no trace of feathering, even in the late winter photo, whereas Star had nearly as much feathering on her belly AND back of her legs as her sire does in that photo. You can see where I didn't do a very good trim job on her elbows, if you click on Erko's 'progeny pictures' to pull up her mug shot!




Here's Teena's (the shiloh) daddy. Quite a handsome boy, and VERY hairy!



 

thanks kitkat- you can't have my baby! LOL  and Sunsilver that male is stunning! You say Teena carried the long coat gene, did you DNA her to know that?  Just because her sire was doesn't necessarily mean she carried the gene.  if he passed on one short coat gene to her, and she got one from her dam, she would be only carrying the short coat gene?  the gene pool can be very strange to follow!