Improving the breed - Page 4

susie said "" Improving the breed..." That´s an American expression"
This is about as simple and as true as it can be stated. An individual may improve what he has in his yard, kennel, etc.(and what is the individual comparing it to). As far as improving the breed, only the national clubs (SV, GSDCA, WDA, UScA, etc). can set policy that actually makes changes in the breed as a whole.

Paul Garrison said "Americans can and will ruin any and all breeds of working dogs."
Obivously Paul, you haven't read on PDB what a wonderful GSD we Americans have created. They can do agility, dock dive and catch frisbees. Some of them have good hips and elbows. And there are even some that don't require hours in PetCo asking strangers to hand out treats. You really should pull yourself into the 21 first century.

as far as beetree, I'm not a brain surgeon, but I am pretty sure that it takes a steady hand and good eye sight to be one. The post by Keith and SM were spot on, and yea, I think I have the experience to say that.

best, Rik

Rik
I am trying to get to the 21st but my damn pants are below my ass and I can't run.

Paul, your vison of the GSD is as it should be. Pull your damn pants up and run with it.

Rik

Paul, I still don't see where you're coming from by accusing the Americans for the existence of the long stockcoat. That's really the only point on which I was challenging you.

I don't dispute that there is a place for the 'hard-assed, bear-trapped mouthed' GSDs in the breed; but I will say you are wrong if you believe that biddability is not necessary in ALL GSDs.  Without that, you will have no control over your 'man-stopper'. Odd term, that--'man-stopper'. Frankly, we're not that difficult a species to stop--a well-placed bite tends to stop any human who isn't armed with a weapon to dispatch a dog, or dusted/methed up to the gills so their brain's pain center doesn't register the bite. If the human has the necessary weaponry, no dog is going to be able to stop that person...unless you're advocating we try to breed bullet-deflecting exoskeletons into the dogs.  Also, it's fair to say that you are the exception, rather than the rule, as far as the type of owner the majority of GSDs will be living with, is it not?  There will always be variation in hardness among individual dogs, even those of identical breeding, because each dog IS an individual, with its own unique take on the things it experiences.  Even cloned animals have been found that have different temperaments and character than their source animals, after all.

Perhaps you should re-read your von Stephanitz, Paul, as he did indeed expect his Shepherd Dog to do hunting duty if necessary.  Was he expecting his Shepherd Dog to perform the task as well as his Drathaar or his Wachtelhund? Of course not--but if he could only have a single dog with him, his Shepherd Dog would be more useful to him than either of the other two dogs.
He also expected his Shepherd Dog to babysit his children in the course of protecting them, too. An all-around working dog is what he envisioned, and it's what he created. Yes, 'schutzhund' translates to 'protection dog', and I reiterate--there is no room in the breed for cowardice; but the exercises were created to test the dog's suitability for breeding, and assessed the dog's stability of temperament, its biddability, athleticism, retrieving and tracking skills, AND protective abilities--protection was not, and was never, meant to be the sole measure of a dog's quality. Were that the case, schutzhund would have only a protection phase, and nothing else. AND it was never mean to become a sporting competition, either. Whether you like it or not, I've seen, known, and even had  the much-belittled American-line GSDs who had both the courage and the protective inclination toward their people and property, so it is not something that has disappeared from the breed overall, nor is it the sole provenance of the European lines.

[Rik, I see you've resurfaced, but no need to chime in here--I already know what you think, and since I also know you have NOT met or known or owned every American-lines GSD that ever has, is, or will be born, I call bullshit on your generalization that all American line dogs are shit. You can keep your opinion, thank you very much. It has no value to me, or many other people who have a rational and reasonable head on their shoulders. If a dog protects me from harm, I don't give a damn about its lineage--it's a good dog. Period.]

 

aw hexe, that's just mean. I'm sure that you are quite the authority on the Am. GSD. What I'm not sure of is did you gain this expertise from breeding, owning, finishing Am. dogs to AKC Champions/ob. titles.

You know, actualy putting your time/finances where your keyboard is.

best,
Rik

My fiance's police department has a shepherd that is as close to the perfect german shepherd as I have seen. She is a real working dog....not all these titles next to her name but has proven herself in real life time and again. Dual purpose drug and detaining dog. I don't know the proper terms, I am no expert. She gets the bad guy to the ground, and holds. She does not cause injury unless the guy tries to hit her or get away. (I see too many police dogs just ripping the person to shreds after they have stopped trying to escape!) She has a perfect out.

The second that she is called off the perp, she turns into a loving, "normal" dog again. Just this weekend the department hosted a kids day for the children of the city to first see her work (with someone with a sleeve) and then immediately after, all the children took turns petting her and taking pictures.

No danger of this dog turning into that youtube video shepherd....do you remember the video of the reporter that leans over the shepherd, "invading his space" and gets bit? This female shepherd can go from a lazy couch potato letting children climb all over her with no problem to a drug dog/ working dog instantly. She also gets along with her handlers other dogs and children perfectly.

That to me seems like the perfect german shepherd. But, like I said earlier...I am no expert.

Feel free to PM me if you would like to know where the department obtained her from. It is not the united states LOL Here are some pics...cropped out the people faces in them.





 

Your police department is smarter than most as almost all police dogs in the USA are male .. the cops can't stand having a coworker that doesn't have a johnson!!  If you want to improve any dog breed concentrate on the females and pick the best from them as the foundation.  Instead of breeding every GSD female that can whelp a litter to the same idiotic BSP or BSZS winner hoping for a miracle, just breed the great females to a male that compliments her talents and mitigates her weaknesses and there comes your next generation of top GSD.  Unfortunately the female police K9 you posted about will likely never have offspring as by the time she retires from duty she will be too old and that is a waste.

More sage advice.

Good morning Hexe, It is a beautiful day in the Ozarks.

I am very old school and in the olden days a long coat was a disqualifying fault. That was good enough for me. I am not blaming the whole of the long coat on Americans, but we want them and they will breed them. I will admit that my experience with LC's is very limited but I have never seen a good one.
I used to be able to take an aloof dog to a trial and trial my dog, now the bastard better be social or he will now pass the temperament test. Why does my GSD need to be nice to anyone outside of my family? I can take my dogs in public and not bit anyone, but they don't pet them either.
Now with that being said, (I have owned and trained a lot of GSD's),  although a barking dog at the fence can a deterrent, he is not effective if he can't or won't back up his claim.

I am in a little different situation then most. My line of work has the potential to draw thieves and I want them to consider they might get dog bit if they open the door or gate, and if they do I want them to experience it with a lot blood and pain.

On a different spectrum; Do you believe the local LE can protect you? If not do you want to be protected?

 

bubbabooboo--

One great advantage of having a female is that she is small enough to get into small spaces where drugs are hidden but is still big enough to take down the suspect. My fiance says that she is completely in sync with her human partner as well. She can go from playing to obedience to working to playing again with very quick changes in her demeanor.

At first I was discouraged that the department chose to import, what with all the good dogs here in the US. But after doing more research I found that many, many police dogs simply should not have made the cut. Have you seen the videos where the dogs have to be pulled off of the suspect? That is very bad in my eyes! Also, in demonstrations that are being recorded by local tv stations, you would imagine the department sends out their best dog, right? Many times I see officers yanking their dogs leash to heel next to them, dogs breaking stays, and not doing a proper out. Even with my untrained eye these are glaringly obvious.

I am happy that out of the three dogs the department got, two are ideal. The other one is a malinois and is a drug dog only so I have not seen its obedience or "out" in action and can't judge it.