Improving the breed - Page 5

So you are a k9 consultant for LE ? Wow.

Rik, you have stepped over the line by taking a bite out of Hexe and you really own her a sincere apology, not a left handed mia culpa.

Paul, I too am considered old school - owning and working GSD for 50+ years now. As Hexe suggested you need to review your history especially with regard to longcoats. While coats WITHOUT undercoat have always been disqualified, coats WITH undercoat ( = long stockhaar) were allowed until 1998. In fact in the 1938 standard change that first started to eliminate white it specifically exempted white long stockhaars. Coats could and did get KKl1a up until 1968 when they were put in kkl2 . They have always been part of the working dog side of the GSD often excelling not only in Sch but obedience and herding ( many seem to have that biddability which IS so essential to good working dogs). It was only in 1998 that the SV stupidly imho disqualified them  and that was I am firmly convinced simply an economic decision as I  will explain in the next paragraph.

Hexe , let me offer a theory on why the SV tried to disqualify coats in 1998. It goes back to the Martin brothers and the commercilzation(sp) of the breed. Prior to the Martins while GSDs had been exported worldwide it was done mostly on a 1 by 1 basis and most countries maintained breeding stock that was primarily of in country breeding ( England, US, Sweden, Finland etc). In part this was due to the interupption of the World Wars and the Great depression - though GSD were imported to the US consistently during those events. In part it was also due to the fact that breeding and importing dogs was for the most part the hobbly of the monied class. The Far East and the USA were always the main markets for big priced dogs ( often used up stud dogs that the Germans had sufficient breeding stock from but as noted above the truly great ones were NEVER sold) (Germany did AND does ship a lot of pos and the ability to sort thru what is available to you has always been very important). In the USA one of the larger export markets for Germany at the time, in the late 70s the breed people essentially stopped importing and integrating foreign dogs for two reasons. One was American - the style had moved to Lance of Fran Jo Lines ( ironically heavily German pedigree for the day) crossed with Waldesruh dogs (spacey but gorgeous) and/or Yoncalla's Mike lines ( Bernd Kallengarten another German dogs. Lance brought high withers , not wonderful fronts but a driving rear. Mike daughters and gr daughters brought substance, temperament and character and suspension( back then a few folks actually knew what this was and appreciated it and what it contributes to movement and function. Sad to say very hard to find these days). O
 

Proof me wrong, but I think the disqualification was in 1991, if I remember well.

Nothing to do with commerzialisation - plain and simple the thought "useful" for working or not ( and a long stock coat is NOT useful - I do own one...)
They are allowed NOW because SV lost too many members, and tries to get back the owners of the coats.

Former DDR did forbid them after the second worldwar, that´s the reason, why there are lines without the rezessiv longcoat gene now.
In Germany they were "outsiders" on shows and on breed surveys since the late sixties, but not officially forbidden ( 1991 ).
I don´t see any reason to breed "for" a long stock coat, they do happen, why breed them?

The LC is not the point of any of my posts. I have no use for hair on any dog. The longer it is the more problems it causes. My point is the temperament of the dog. A protection dog that can not stop a man is no use to me at all. Not to mention no fun.

I still haven't read all above posts, but my share on the topic is like this,

Improving the breed isn't achievable by a single breeder, it can only be done by an authority like SV, FCI, national breed clubs etc through setting a strategy, long goals and short goals etc and forcing regulations. I do not think a single breeder can alone improve or better the breed though he/she can contribute to the goal of improving the breed by following regulations of a local or international authorities.

Some breeders think it is good to make the claim as a marketing tool to establish appealing image to dog buyers when their true goal is make some money/profit.

Bloodlines and genetics,

Though I understand their importance in breeding, I see many breeders use these terms also for marketing purpose and also to frighten those who might think of breeding to stop before they start.
I think for a breeder to produce average dogs he/she only has to comply with say SV standards/regulations in regards to health checks, titles, breed worthy test etc, using eligible dogs to breed pays to good/average offspring being of a good probability.

For a breeder to stand above other breeders he/she should work harder, be talented, spend more money, assign more time, educate himself/herself more on genetics, history, bloodlines etc and probabilities will be more for success and better contribution to authority aim to improve the breed.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim
So very true in many ways, but I do not want an average GSD of the 2000's. The SV screwed up the breed by forcing the two very different lines basically different breeds called WL and SL. Now before blood pressure goes through the roof think about it. In the 1960's who were the top dogs? Dogs the set the stage that was left behind. Hard dogs that left the slow moving helpers bleeding that were V and VA dogs. If the GSD is to be the all around dog, then the select few tough hard structurally correct dogs (that can think, track, retreve ect ect) should be the only V rated dogs and the finest of those make VA.  So the very pretty dogs without the real ability to protect should at best get a G, as well as the tough, real hard dogs that look like a goat should not get a good rating either. its a balanced breed of dog.

If they were all put together and helpers chased the shit off of the field and then the dogs that we not under extreme control were told to leave, you could have a balanced breed of dog that looked good and really worked.  Sch should be linked to real life.

 

Blitzen, I'm not offended by the likes of Rik.  For that, I'd need to respect his opinions, and he destroyed all remnants of that all by himself quite some time ago.

susie, I know for sure that it happened later than 1991 simply because the LSC bitch I had wasn't whelped until 1995, and I checked on the eligibility of the LSC for breeding purposes under SV rules before I bought her with an eye toward her as a foundation bitch if everything shook out correctly.

Paul, I guess I misunderstood your comment, " Susie you are very very right. For example the "long coat" but not limited to that. Americans can and will ruin any and all breeds of working dogs."   To me, that sounded like you were blaming Americans for the existence of coated GSDs in the breed.